7.65 mm Parabellum & 7.63 mm Mauser by Léon Beaux?


#1

Anyone has any information about the production of any of these two cartridges by Léon Beaux?

Was the manufacturer of the MAUSER * 7,63 * headstamp identified?


#2

Fede - to my knowledge, the headstamp * MAUSER * 7.63 has never been positively identified. I would not say that it is impossible, however, that it could be Leon Beaux. The nly way that could ever be confirmed is from factory documentation or a box label, though.

I have never seen an LBC or Beaux-headstamp cartridge in 7.63 mm Mauser or 7.65 m Parabellum. Pettinelli’s book "Armi Portatile e Munizioni Militari Italiane 1870-1998 doesn’t mention Leon Beaux as a manufacturer of the Mauser round, but then the book doesn’t show 7.65 mm Parabellum at all, that I can find in it anyway (it does mention 7.65 Glisenti), and of course Fiocchi made that caliber for years. But then, the book is only about Italian MILITARY ammunition, not commercial, so perhaps it is correct they did not show it based on what is NOT known about the early 7.65 Glisenti Pistols.

The fact is the Beaux Catalog for 1929 shows at least the 7.63 Mauser. I have only one page and the cover in xerox copies, as it was sent to me only for the information on 9 mm Glisenti. Hower, right next to the picture of the Glisenti cartridges is that of the Mauser, both on Page 26 for those lucky enough to have an Beaux catalog.The 1932 catalog, for which I have only two pages - the auto pistol rounds - shows both calibers. I have a couple of price-quote sheets sent to Roger Marsh in September 1956, and they don’t show either caliber, although they do show some auto pistols rounds (6.35 mm, 7.65 mm Browning, 9 mm Corto and a cartridge “9 mm Lungo,” which I am sure is the 9 mm Parabellum, not the Browning long since they refer to the M38-A Beretta.

I am sorry that’s all the information I have. I wish I had a Beaux-headstamped .30 Mauser round to compare with my * MAUSER * 7.63, but again, I have never seen one in my life that I can recall, and certainly do NOT have one in my own collection (nor the 7.65 Para).


#3

John, thanks for the information. Your MAUSER * 7,63 * round shows a copper primer with superficial concentric circles?


#4

Fede - no, my cartridge of that headstamp has a domed brass cup, and I see no marks of any kind on the primer cup, certainly not anything I could describe as concentric circles. The individual letters of the word “MAUSER” are quite wide, with the “M” similar to some “M.C.M.” Italian headstamps, but under a good magnifier, the headstamp appears a little crude. Although it make it the best quality headstamp I have seen except from Government Arsenals, if I had to choose a country for this round, I would think it might be China. Again, though, despite my comment about the headstamp appearing a little crude, it is much better than we are used to seeing from “small shop” commercial Chinese ammunition. The primer, case and bullet are so well made, I am already re-evaluating my comment that I would think it is Chinese. The bullet is CN (non-magnetic) and the case neck has three well-struck, stab-type primer crimps. The domed brass primer cup would not be “out of step” for early Italian auto pistol ammunition, nor would the non-magnetic CN bullet. Hmmmm. Food for thought.

I cannot explain the difference between my cartridge and the one you describe. Mine is certainly NOT a reload.


#5

John, I have never seen any MAUSER * 7,63 * headstamped cartridge different from the one you have. However, a PARABELLUM * 7,62 * headstamped round (yes, headstamp is “7,62”) recently showed up in Spain showing a copper primer with superficial concentric circles. This type of primer and the shape and orientation orientation of the stars is identical to the ones found in some early LBC rounds (8 mm Steyr, .320 Long, .380 Long, etc.). It doesn’t look like a Chinese round.


#6
  • Mauser * 7.63 , brass case, CN bullet is Leon beaux

JP


#7

Hello JP, thank you very much! It would be great if you can post a picture of a drawing, catalog or box(?).


#8

In 1923 it was * SFM * GG
In 1929 it was * Mauser * 7.63

In 1932 it was Beaux 7.63


#9

JP, thanks again. What you mean is that the MAUSER * 7,63 * headstamp is only illustrated in the 1929 catalog? What about the 7.65 mm Parabellum?


#10

[quote=“Fede”]JP, thanks again. What you mean is that the MAUSER * 7,63 * headstamp is only illustrated in the 1929 catalog?

[color=#0000FF]yes[/color]

What about the 7.65 mm Parabellum?[/quote]

[color=#0000FF]I will check[/color]


#11

Fede - Interesting. I have never seen the 7.65 Para described as the “Parabellum 7.62”…
except in the 1932 Leon Beaux Catalog!!!

Sometimes circumstantial evidence is all one has, and is pretty darned convincing. What a great 7.65 Para headstamp the chaps in Spain have!

I have a pretty scarce 7.65 mm Browning round, brass case, CN non-magneic bullet, domed brass primer, headstamped * AUTOMATIC * 32 - it may be that with your help, and that of JP, two more previously “unknown” headstamps have been identified. There are differences, though, between the two rounds - the 7.63 Mauser and the .32 Automatic. While both have a
flat-top “3” on the headstamp, the stars on the 7.63 Mauser headstamp have five points, and the “A” in “MAUSER” has a flat top; the stars on the .32 headstamp are with four points, and the to letters “A” in “AUTOMATIC” are pointed top. Important style differences, but in general layout, identical to each other.

Any thoughts on the “* AUTOMATIC * .32”?

I wish someone would reprint those Beaux Catalogs from 1929, 1932, etc. I would love to get copies of the entire catalogs, not just the poorly copied, single pages I have. I can’t begin to read the headstamps on the cartridges pictured on my copies.


#12

John & Jean Pierre, thank you very much for your help. This forum really works!!!


#13

So, are we now saying that these two cartridges are Italian?


#14

Jon - What we are saying is that all evidence, including L. Beaux catalogs from JP, indicate these are Leon Beaux commercial cartridges. And, why not? They showed them in their catalogs for at least two or three years, and yet no one (except perhaps JP) seemed to know what they were. I suspect that many of the “unknown” headstamps in cartridges are exactly like this - from well known firms, and cataloged by them, but where the headstamps alone don’t offer any identification.

I am not yet positive about the “* AUTOMATIC * .32” headstamp. It is the same format but quite different in font in many ways. I checked about every Leon Beaux-headstamped cartridge I have, and found no other with 4 point stars, other than my .32 aith the above headstamp. Also, this one is expressed in inch measurement, whereas the others are metric. Guess the Jury is still out on that one, unless the headstamp can be read in the catalog.

JP - any comment on the Automatic .32 headstamp?


#15

7.65 Parabellum from Leon Beaux

In 1923 : * L B & C* M
In 1929 : no hstp
In 1932 : Beaux 7.62


#16

[quote=“jeanpierre”]7.65 Parabellum from Leon Beaux

In 1923 : * L B & C* M
In 1929 : no hstp
In 1932 : Beaux 7.62[/quote]

nothing about "auromatic’ hstp


#17

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Fede - Interesting. I have never seen the 7.65 Para described as the “Parabellum 7.62”…
except in the 1932 Leon Beaux Catalog!!!

[color=#0000FF]No, except in all the leon beaux catalogue from 1923 to 1939[/color]

I wish someone would reprint those Beaux Catalogs from 1929, 1932, etc. I would love to get copies of the entire catalogs, not just the poorly copied, single pages I have. .[/quote]

to reprint catalogues you must have them
And because most of the people don’t share their documentation (specially on this forum), you are obliged to buy documentation somebody has already !!
This is idiot anf furthermore a shame because you spend your money for almost nothing (just to have a good copy)

And when you find something nobody has already you don’t have any more money to buy it !
This happened to me one month ago.
I didn’t have 2500 Euros to buy a volume of 0.5 cube meter (132 gallons ??!!) of original factory drawings unknow till nowadays.

If somebody wants to participate …

jp


#18

JP, thanks again for your help.


#19

JP - you are correct. As you personally know, I try to share my documentation, but unfortunately, just as you say, it is difficult for many of us to obtain old catalogs due to their cost today. No longer just information, but rather collector’s items. About 95% of my original catalogs are post 1965.


#20

I only have this unfinished 7,63mm Mauser case, long extended neck as if for a blank. Nothing in 7,65mm Para.

Dwight