7.65 X 54 Argentine Survival Shot Cartridge

Last year at SLICS, (2016), I was fortunate to acquire, from the Argentine attendees, a 7.65 x 54 Shot cartridge. This year, they returned with another specimen, which I promptly purchased, with the intent of sectioning it. Here it is…


Randy

Wonder what they used to seal the crimped end? Tom from MN

Randy, great job, I have never seen one of these sectioned. Thanks for sharing.

Since cartridge collecting started in Argentina, this cartridge was considered experimental and very rare to find, until several boxes showed up in 2009. Here you can see other variants: 7.65 x 54 mm Mauser Extended Case Shot by FM"FLB"

Can you tell me the shot size/diameter? Also, have you measured the shot load weight?

Regards,

Fede

Thank you Fede !
Quite some time ago I printed the info that you posted on the Forum regarding the various 7.65 Shot loads. I remember when the quantity of these showed up and the Forum post concerning them. The shot pellets are 0.090 inch diameter so #8, yes? The shot charge weighs approximately 250 grains. The wad is felt, basically the same as you find in the fluid chamber of a Zippo lighter. The loaded round I have has much more sealant remaining at the mouth and appears to be a thick purple paint.
Randy

Thanks, it’s great to know that your information match what was published by FLB in the early 70’s. Their catalogs also pictures a nickeled case variant with straight neck, but I have never seen an example.

Fede,
thanks a lot for the factory data sheet, answering the obvious questions: what is the shot dispersion when fired from a rifle and what is the expected effective range.

Very interesting cartridge! Thanks for posting!

-Dave

Fede, in nickelplated I do have only a 7,62x51 from FLB, never had a 7,65x54 ni-plated…

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.

-CBA

The similar shot loads in 11.25 mm (.45 Auto) were produced in
a plain brass case in 1965, and in a nickel case in 1966. I don’t
have any other dates in this load in my own collection.

I have only seen one form of 9 x 19 mm Shot Load from FM "FLB"
and that is in a plain brass case. The brass was actually made
from .38 Special cases, or on the .38 Special case line, and have
that revolver caliber on the headstamp. I don’t know if these were
purely experimental, or for their purposes, they simply didn’t care
that the wrong caliber designation was on the case. Like the rifle
rounds, it is a full-length case and that is the obvious reason why
they used the .38 Special case as the basic brass for this round,
to get the required length.

John Moss

Question, Especially to Argentine Collectors… Might these not be " Public Order Cartridges" ( “Orden Publico”)

For Riots, demonstrations etc, sadly common enough in Argentine Past History? European Nations ( 1890s-WW I-WWII)

had “Shot” cartridges ( disintegrating, pelletizing Bullet) for use as “Guard” Cartridges around Military Installations, and for Public Order Use. (Worker’s riots in Milan, 1898 saw first use of the M91 Cartuccia da Guardia).

Given the wide range of calibres made or trialled, might this be the real reason for these cartridges?

“Survival” Cartridges are more in line with Air Force Survival Kits ( Andes, Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego) Wilderness areas, for use in Pistols rather than Service Rifles?

Regards,
Doc AV

The box label for the .45 Auto (11.25 mm) shot cartridges for 1966
title the contents as “CARTUCHOS CAL. 11,25 MM ESPECIALES
DE SUPERVIVENCIA, CON CARGA DE PERDIGONES.” (Cal.
11.25 mm Cartridges special for Survival loaded with shot).

I think that this must lead to the assumption that these were intended
for survival use, and not for crowd control, at least for this caliber. I cannot
address other calibers, for I have no official information on them handy.

John Moss

Yes, these were always advertized and described as “survival cartridges” intended for hunting small game at short range. I have never seen any documentation indicating that they were ever adopted or issued to the military, but I heard of one anecdote of a commando unit using the 7.62x51 load in FAL rifles -with bad results- during a forest survival training exercise performed in the late 1980’s.

Standard loads included .45 Auto, .44 WCF, 7.62x51 and 7.65x54, but experimental cartridges were also made in 9 mm Parabellum (from modified .38 Spl. drawing stage, as mentioned by John) and in .38 Special using an extended case. Also, there was a later development of a plastic container for the .45 Auto cartridge, but it remained experimental and very few examples are known to survive today. It is known to exist in translucent white, white, pink and red.

Jochem, I’m afraid that I don’t have much ballistic information, but below you can see some data for the .45 Auto and 7.62x51 cartridges:

A nickeled case 7.65x54 survival cartridge must be very rare because none was reported so far. Below you can see the only known picture from a c. 1973 catalog (compared with a wooden bullet blank):

Thank you for the additional data.