7.65 x 61 Marina Argentina

I have this 7.65 x 61 Marina Argentina cartridge in the collection. Purple bullet tip and purple primer sealant.
WRACO M A 1914 1

WRACO M A 1914 2

Recently, this cartridge with white bullet tip sold at auction. Same W.R.A.Co. M A 1914 headstamp.
7.65 x 61 MA

What significance, if any, do the different colors have ?

Randy

2 Likes

Randy, the meaning is unknown. Both are loaded with a regular 180 gr bullet and total weight doesn’t indicate any other significant change. Primer sealant usually looks like a maroon lacquer and can also be found without markings.

What is the total weight of your example?

Regards,

Fede

1 Like

I have this exemple with purple bullet tip and the total weight is 26,73 grams

1 Like

Fede,

409.9 grains, or, 26.56 grams

Randy

Thanks!

These cartridges are shown in the book W.R.A.Co. Headstamped Cartridges and their Variations, by Daniel L. Shuey, on pages 339-341. According to Shuey the meaning of the different tip colors is a mystery. I would like to suggest a possible explanation. Since the 7.65x61 was a special match cartridge, could it be that only one lot was issued for each match and was identified by a certain tip color. This would be similar to the special .303 match cartridges with colored bands on the cases used at British and Canadian matches.

3 Likes

Marina Argentina means Argentine Navy, which implies military use. What is the connection of this to a match shoot?

In the period 190x to 1914 etseq., Argentina participated in the Pan American shooting Games.
During the 1912 Games, the Argentine Navy team was impressed by the .30-06 Springfield Rifle and Cartridge, and decided tio develop a 7,65 calibre cartridge to replicate .30 cal performance at long ranges, and using the current DWM M1909 Mauser Rifle, with a 7,65mm Bore.
To make a Cartridge that would fit and Feed with a simple re-chambering, they developed an 7,65x54 case, extended to 7,65x61, with the extension fitted in, in the body, so that the shoulder neck profile was identical in dimensions.Development work was done in conjunction with WRA.
Initially bullets were 7,65mm 154 grain FB, and later ( WRA make) were 175-180 Boattail on the Swiss GP11 pattern.
Sample Rifles were modified re-chambering, fitted with US1903 Pattern Rearsights,( calibrated in Meters for new Cartrige) and Stock patterned on US M1903 Stock, at least in Butt and wrist area.
See Photo of said Match rifle ( unidentified as to use) in Ball’s Mauser Rifle Book, in the Argentine Section.
After WWI, it is unknown how long
the 7,65x61 MA was in service for, and how many M1909 DWMs were converted and/or restocked for Match Use. Being a Navy Marksmanship thing, I suppose very few.
Any Clues, Fede?

Doc AV

1 Like

Here is what Fede had to say regarding this cartridge some time ago:

Maybe this is a good time to point out that the published history of this cartridge is almost 100% wrong and since the publication of a brief paragraph in “Centerfire American Rifle Cartridges 1892-1963” by Ray Bearse it has being expanded and exagerated to the present form without any single piece of evidence.

To make the story short:

  • It was conceived as an improved service cartridge to be adopted by the Argentine Navy in modified Mauser Model 1891 rifles and later also Model 1909. It was also used in navy artillery tubes for economic shooting practice.

  • It was never designed as a match cartridge (although it was inspired by the deficiencies of the 7.65 mm Mauser cartridge with 154 gr bullet at certain shooting distances and conditions after Camp Perry 1913). The “Match” designation is wrong and was never used, nor by Argentina, Winchester, USCCo or DuPont.

  • It was not designed by Winchester but by Captain Casey of DuPont who proposed the Argentine Naval Commision a design based on a .30-06 case shortened and loaded with a 7.65 mm 180 gr bullet (prototype cartridges were made from FA cases).

  • In 1915 it was decided to abandon this design and to purchase 180 gr bullets and DuPont Military #15 powder to be loaded in German DWM 7.65 mm Mauser cases ready available.

Randy

1 Like

Wow, thanks for a BIG story, I am glad I’ve asked. So, I assume, these headstamps are sort of rare?

Three of these four are original. The AACAM is a replica. The U.S.C.Co. is most probably the rarest of these. These were originally posted by Fede.
7.65 x 61 Headstamps
Other replicas have been made. Here are two.
7.65 M A
7.65 M A Replica
Randy

2 Likes

Quoting from a post above:
“To make a Cartridge that would fit and Feed with a simple re-chambering, they developed an 7,65x54 case, extended to 7,65x61, with the extension fitted in, in the body, so that the shoulder neck profile was identical in dimensions.”
See below a scan of the Marina Argentina next to a 7.65 x 54 with the case shoulders aligned. The neck and shoulder on the 7.65 x 61 are considerably longer.


Here is a Winchester drawing of the cartridge.
7_65 marina arg_ 6  (2)
I re-drew this for clarity some time ago for my own use but showed the original drawing here.
Randy

2 Likes

Randy, the top line: “_ _ _ C.F. CARTRIDGE 7.65 M/M ARGENTINE NAVY PTD FP-180 GR”, what are the first few letters?
I Get Center Fire [?], but not sure if I got the rest, in Italic.
Any idea of the date of the drawing?

It makes sense to me that the neck needed to be longet to accomodate a heavier, and necessarily longer, bullet.

Here is my redraw.
The first letters are R F for Rimfire, struck through because this is a C F cartridge.
7.65 x 61 ARGENTINE DRAWING.pdf (31.9 KB)
The original drawing is undated but my guess would be about 1913
Randy

1 Like

Thank you.
One other wuestion, what does “PTD F.P.” stand for?
From a modern bullet description [bullet manufacturers data] it would be Pointed, and Flat Point, which can not apply here.
Confusion…

PoinTeD Full Patch

Randy

And to add a bit more info to this thread, here are United States Cartridge Co. bullet jacket draw sets, not necessarily complete but pretty neat none the less. The 180 gr. bullet was loaded in standard 7.65 x 54 cartridges and may have been the same bullet used in the 7.65 Marina Argentina made by U.S.C.Co.
USCCO 7.65 BULLET DRAWS0001

USCCO 7.65 BULLET DRAWS0002

USCCO 7.65 BULLET DRAWS0004

USCCO 7.65 BULLET DRAWS0005

USCCO 7.65 BULLET DRAWS0006 (2)

Randy

1 Like

Dear Randy;

Years ago, with Fede, we began to investigate in depth the 7,65x61 M.A. cartridge, we crossed many information obtained from Dan Shuey and from the argentine navy archives, it was an amazing history, and the design of the cartridge was not only task of Captain Casey of Dupont but a joint development with Rear Admiral Onofre Betbeder wich was the president of the argentine naval commission in the U.S., twice time secretary of the argentine navy, and first commander of the school frigate “Presidente Sarmiento”. Regardind the rifle mentioned in Robert W.D. Ball book, IMHO it´s just a 1909 action with a Springfield barrel and stock, it´s a pitty he dont provide further details.
Warmest Regards

2 Likes

Very neat US bullet boxes Randy.

Fede I also have a purple tipped example weighing 410.8 grains

A Winchester box saying nothing about “match”


2 Likes

Here’s a pic from SLICS 2013 of a set of gauges that was for sale.

Paul

2 Likes