7,65Browning DW u M 479A Box


#1

As this Box contains round based ammo with rounded brass primer and the DWM-headstamps are with serifs, and also the box uses a sideprint with saying Deutsches Erzeugnis on a black/White/red flagcolored side, I think, this must be before first WW.

First, the black/White/red Flagsigns where only used from 1871 to 1919 (end of WW1), and than again from 1933-to 1945.
In the meantime and after 1945 the flag was black/red/Gold…
But with the headstamp has serifs on the lettering, it cannot be from 1933 and later…and also cannot be from 1919 to 1932, as in this time the flag had other Colors and where heavily obeyed to stay with the flag order…
What other meanings are here??
Before WW1? or other time Frame?

Sincerely
PP


#2

PP, Is there a load code stamped on the bottom of the box or inside the top lid???

Lew


#3

I agree this is a very early box. Pre 1910.


#4

It cannot be from before 1910 because 479A number ctge was created during the second semester of 1913.
JP


#5

Feasible. I was considering the introduction of Mauser’s pocket pistols in 1910. But the first model was a 6,35. The 7,65 did not appear before 1914.

The strong link between Mauser and DWM should be visible in the marketing by DWM of specific ammunition targeted at Mauser pistols.


#6

“The 7,65 mauser pistol did not appear before 1914”.

In fact DWM called it the Model 1913. It means this pistol is from 1913 and not 1914 (which must be the date of commercialisation I think).
jp


#7

The 1910 was internally known as the 1909 but sales did not take place before 1911. The 1914 model probably saw some delay as well. So no surprise to see some discrepancies in the dates.


#8

Lew, no…no markings at all…

and if you (JP and Vlim) talk about Introduction of 7,65 browning pistols; the Reichszollverwaltung has accepted the Dreyse 07 pistol already in 1912!!. The pistol itself has Deutsches Reichspatent #185 411, and arrived 1910 on the market…
I do not believe. that the major ammo fabricant DWM had not made this ammo before 1913.
As I am in foreign countries, I do not have my catalogues a.s.o. at hand, to check all data…

Peter


#9

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#10

A portion of Peter’s photo from above showing the headstamp:


#11

Peter,

DWM would start marketing their ammo for Mauser pistols as well as FN pistols on the box because they were part of the same corporation. The idea is that if a DWM 7,65 box does not reference Mauser on the label, the box can be dated before 1914.


#12

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#13

The DWM Case Listing was finalized in 1913, and updated after that that date. The entry for the 479 case, obviously for the M1900 Browning and perhaps other Brownings is in the original hand of the rest of the original entries. The entry for the 479A was added in a different hand after the Case Listing was distributed in 1913. The markings on the headstamp make a post-1913 date very clear.

As I have dated a lot of boxes, it is obvious that changes in style do not occur on all calibers at the same time. In almost every case I have looked at, boxes are printed in batches and used until they are gone, only then is a box in a new pattern printed. In big production activities like Remington and Winchester some box styles on low sales cartridges may stay in use for years after a new box style has been introduced on a more rapidly selling caliber. I suspect that the dates of change in the flag color varied by at least a few years from caliber to caliber. My guess is that the box was loaded sometime from 1914 to 1919 or a bit later depending on the date the flag on the end was changed in this particular caliber.

Cheers,
Lew


#14

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#15

JP,
I was only agreeing with you to make you happy. Someone told me it was your birthday, so consider this a present!!!

Lew


#16

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#17

I have extreme difficulty following y’alls conversation on 513A - it goes back and forth.

My question is - WHY would DWM have their own cartridge for the 45 ACP as late as 1925-1926? Since the 45 ACP was agreed upon more than a decade before?

I ask, because obviously I have a 513A sitting next to me, and I thought it a very early example.


#18

My probably poor understanding of the DWM numbered .45 M1911 examples is that there was a “513” before the 513A & as far as I’m aware only one is known to exist. So the “A” production was later.
However sorry i can’t help with accurate dates.

As to why, DWM has their own .45, they made a number of case types, that were others but still gave it a DWM number Illustrated/ noted here with the 479, 479A’s a round developed by FN / John Browning

Any how hope that helps. & that If I’m wrong someone will correct me.

Perhaps ? interesting story concerning these 513A’s perhaps 20 or more years ago someone from Europe brought 5@ to Chicago, Put them out on a table with “$200” on them. Someone is said to have told him to put a couple of zeros at the end but he didn’t. While he was away from his table someone came up, picked them up & when to the next table holder, showed him the cartridges & said, he wants two dollars each for these will you give him this ten bucks & the guy said… sure…


#19

We have to keep in mind that at the time there was no standardization.
As a result, companies like DWM or Roth asssigned case (and also bullet) numbers to their own version of the cartridge in question.
DWM in many cases found the original dimensions (for example the result of converting inch tolerances to metric) not optimal, appending an A, B, C … suffix to the “old” case number to the modified “new” version. This uniquely identified the new (case/bullet) version (and its dimensions) within the DWM system.
On the other hand, letter-suffixes were also used to identify new case shapes (as in 366L for the 8x51). Application was not as standardized as we would expect today.


#20

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