7.65mm Frommer vs. Roth-Sauer


#1

Were the 7.65mm Frommer and Roth-Sauer designations ever used interchangeably despite the hotter loading of the Frommer?

Any thoughts on which designation should be used for this one is?

Thanks,
Dave


#2

BTT


#3

Dave - to my knowledge, the two cartridges were never viewed as interchangeable as to designations. Whether both will safely work in either a Frommer or a Roth-Sauer, I just don’t know. I have never seen anything in print that even speculated on that, and doubt anyone these days has access to both pistols and a sufficient supply of ammunition to find out.

I have seen one of the Frommer rounds described simply as “7.65 m/m mit Frommer Ladung” but that was the 17 mm case length Frommer, not the short case version.

This is another confusing case of the same base case type being treated as two completely different cartridges simply because of the powder charge.

The cartridge you picture, if I am reading the photo right and the round has a flat primer cup, is a new one on me. It appears to be one of the Italian rounds, but mine, for which I have the original box, has a domed primer. It, too, is without headstamp and has a CN bullet jacket. Is your specimen a magnetic bullet? Mine is non-magnetic. While the box is all in French and anonymous as to maker, it is known to be of Italian manufacture. The box is the height for 7.65 mm Browning, but there is an overlabel on the box that says “Frommer,” so I am inclined to believe the round you show is a Frommer loading. If it has a magnetic bullet, it may be even if it is not Italian, as I am supposing. Its another one for me to look for. I have a dummy with no headstamp, but it has a hole in the center of the primer which makes it difficult to tell what the shape of the cup originally was, and the bullet is a plain brass jacket, the only round I have seen with a brass jacket. It was found in Italy and assumed to be Italian manufacture, although I have no proof of that. Where a round is found in no way, of courses, guarantees its national origin.

John Moss


#4

John,

Thank you for that information. My view of the case head does not give a good perspecitve of the primers shape. It would best be described as “rounded” though it sure looks flat in that image. I should have added that detail in a descriptive text.

The bullet is non-magnetic and I suspect it might be the same as your Italian item you describe.

Thanks again,
Dave


#5

In a follow-up e-mail John Moss was very kind to send me was a scan of two different 7.65mm Frommer boxes which he gave me permission to post here. On the left is an Austro-Hungarian box and on the right is one of Italian origin per John’s description.

A big thanks to John for sharing his info on this neat little cartridge!

Dave


#6

Fiocchi listed , in its 1926 catalog , the 7.65 mm as " adapted to Frommer and Roth Sauer pistols" .

I don’t know if that loading was tuned to safe use with both pistols types


#7

Pivi - do you think that is a Fiocchi box? For some reason, I felt it was more like a Leon Beaux box. I don’t really know that, though. If it is Fiocchi, it would be interesting to know if there are any identical boxes but with a “Roth-Sauer” over-label. The box is actually sized for the 7.65 Browning cartridge, but there are cut cardboard spacer pieces inside that are not slotted to interlock to form a divider for the cartridge, so they are not simply a divider that was disassembled. I got the box with just one round, and the cardboard pieces just in the bottom of the box.

I have a hunch that the Frommer cartridge was slightly more powerful than the Roth-Sauer, but with such a small powder capacity to that 13 mm case I doubt there was much difference. Earlmeier-Brandt say that the Roth-Sauer had “poorer performance,” showing the velocity for it as 326 meters per second and that for the Roth-Frommer as 340 MPS. That is not a huge difference in velocity, especially since the Frommer had a slightly longer barrel, although perhaps not enough to make any real difference in velocity by itself. They indicate that the Roth-Sauer ammunition gave poor functioning in the Frommer pistol, but I don’t know if that was conjecture, from other reports, or they actually tested these rounds in each. They mention nothing about either cartridge being dangerous (too high pressure to be safe to shoot) in either gun.

Interesting rounds. Wish we knew more about them. I once thought I had a good collection of them, but I found there are several Czech/Slovak headstamps in it that I don’t have, and have never even seen here.

John Moss


#8

John,
I think you are right about the maker. That’s looks like a Leon Beaux box to me too

I didn’t say that it is a Fiocchi box , but that Fiocchi listed this cartridge as adapted for both pistols

Anyway , I don’t know if Leon Beaux listed it as two different cartridges , the 7.65 mm Frommer and the 7.65 mm Roth Sauer


#9

Thanks Pivi. I know you didn’t say it was a Fiocchi box. I should have asked my question differently. You are a great source of information on Italian rounds (heck - on any other stuff too!).

Does anyone have a Leon Beaux catalog that shows the 7.65 x 13 mm Roth-Sauer or Roth-Frommer (usually just called “Frommer” but I am trying to be sure people understand I am not talking about the 7.65 x 17 mm Frommer round) in it. I would think it would date from the early 1920s, although I am not sure about it. It could even be post-WWII as for a short time, there seemed to be a lot of the boxes like I have, with the “Frommer” overlabel, floating around the USA. I have very little in Beaqux factory literature.

John Moss


#10

Pivi,

Thanks for that Fiocchi catalog reference. That’s exactly what I was wondering about regarding this caliber. As John was saying regarding case capacity, it’s hard to believe there could be a huge difference in performace to be had.

Dave