7.65mm Long French ? ID

Can anyone ID this round/case. I think it’s a French 7.65mm Long, but there is no headstamp and the Berdan primer pocket looks deeper than you’d expect.

Case Length: 19.48/0.767
Rim Dia: 8.45/0.333

Armourer - that is a 7.65 French Long you have, and a very nice specimen. It is undoubtedly a factory dummy, and probably dates from 1925 or earlier. Despite being adopted around 1935 for French Service use, the cartridge goes back to 1924 or 1925 for trials with a gun very similar to the FN 9mm Hipower (Gran Puissance) Model in look, but smaller, slimmer and in caliber 7.65mm French Long.

I have an unheadstamp loaded round with a very shallow case cannelure like yours, but with a much blunter bullet ogive, and with a flat, brass primer cup. I also have one unheadstamp in a live round with the same blunt bullet, but with a more pronounced case cannelure and a black primer and case mouth seal, and a oval, copper primer cup. I have a dummy identical to yours, including the bullet shape and the fact that the bullet jacket has almost a black undertone, or tint to it, but mine is headstamped “S.F.M. 1926” and it has a fairly well-defined case cannelure.

These early unheadstamp French-made 7.65 Longs are quite scarce in my view - at least I have never seen all that many of them, and represent very early cartridges in the development of this cartridge which is, of course, based on the even earlier American .30 Pedersen round.

The only other unheadstamped 7.65 French Long round I am aware of was made in Czechoslovakia during the Indo-China wars (the “French era”) and was probably intended for use by the Viet Minh, although I have not been able to confirm that. Certainly they had plenty of French Weapons, just as later they acquired many American weapons. The Czech round looks absolutely French-made, but has a brass-jacketed bullet.

I hope this is of some assistance and interest.

John Moss

Thanks for the info very interesting.

Armourer - I did have a couple of errors of omission. I said that the only other unheadstamp round I knew of was the Czech 7.65 French Long. that was a mistake caused by bad memory. I have also a NUPE from Bertram Bullet Company, in Australia, made within the last five or six years. However, it is boxer-primed, so can be easily distinguished. It could probably be found with all sorts of loads, but since Bertram makes only the empty cases, none of the loads would be of any collector significance unless made by a major custom ammunition maker. In the absence of those, I always prefer to have the empty case.

There is also an unheadstamped round I have not been able to identify, although since it is loaded with a typical .32 ACP bullet of GMCS, it is probably European in origin, not from the U.S. It is in mint condition and of good quality. It is not likely loaded in a Bertram case, because the rim and the extractor groove and extractor groove bevel are quite different from my Bertram specimen. It has a flat brass primer. Being unheadstamped puzzles me, because I think the round is quite modern, and I believe in Europe most countries, I think, require a headstamp these days, or some marking of caliber and maker/importer/loader. Maybe I am wrong. The magnetic bullet makes it unlikely to be American, or at least the projectile isn’t, and the bullet being of the .32 auto (7.65mm Browning) type makes it unlikely to be military. I suspect the case is boxer primed, but don’t know for sure and don’t want to pull the bullet because that would ruin the very heavy, and professional-looking, roll mouth crimp.

I am sorry I forgot these. When I am talking military rounds, I tend to forget the commercial ones in my collection, even though I like them as much.

There are, by the way, in this country at least, a whole slew of commercial loads using remanufactured .32 S&WL cases. I keep them by bullet type in my collection if they were made on new brass (no signs of reloading or previous firing) and are not amateurishly done, since they are then “new ammunition.” They mostly have R-P headstamps and are, admittedly, not terribly interesting even to me, although I do keep them in the collection.
Many of them were made by Old Western Scrounger, formerly a California firm and one that has had their own “OWS” headstamp on a few case types, 8mm Nambu for one.

There are, by the way, in this country at least, a whole slew of commercial loads using remanufactured .32 S&WL cases. [/quote]

Hi John,
You surely know that, but many people not :

the remanufactured 32 S&WL cases work not too bad in a handgun but jam in a SMG because the rear is not strong enough.
it is because of that there is always a shortage of 7.65 Long in the US among the MG shooters.