7.65x20 French pistol ammo

What is it? Measures about 7.8x20mm. Headstamps VE 1945, VE1946, ATS 1947.

They look like 7.65 French Longs. Compare to the US .30 Pederson in case size.


Anyone have a quantity of these they don’t need???

Does it mean you are looking for shooting ammo ?

In fact, pretty well a straight copy of the Pedersen I understand. It was the French Army’s standard pistol/SMG round from the 1930s until after WW2, used in the Mle 1935 pistol (world.guns.ru/smg/fr/mas-193-e.html ).

Yes, Jeanpierre, that’s what it means. I foolishly bought a 1935A pistol, and new ammo is expensive and hard to find. Perhaps some of the old French surplus is still alive.

If you find black steel case and black bullet ctges or brass case and CN bullet ctges better to take them apart and change powder and primer. Eilther the primer doesn’t work or either the powder is becoming as black glue !!

About the brass case and tombac bullet ctges only two lots are still working !
All the others don’t work !
I don’t remember the lots ( 1956 if I recall well) I can check if you need.

Best to do is to unload them , change primer and powder and reload them.
We do that , it is not difficult and works well.

Primers are Berdan, it is not a great deal to take out the primers (i used to do taht watchig the TV with a hand decapping tool). You can use 7.62 Tokarev bullets.

If base material is needed (cases and bullets) you can import them from France
if there is no problem to receive them by mail


I fear we are getting into forbidden territory here, so I will send you a PM.
Thank you.

I noticed today that Starline’s list of growing new caliber brass includes 7.65 French Long. Now if they would just do some Martini-Henry rifle brass…


Almost wish I still had my M1935A and M1925S 7.65 Long pistols. Good news for those that own them and reload that Starline is now making the case. Good news for us, as collectors in that category, as well.

Now, to find someone who carries these in stock.

For those that like pistol ammo, but might only have a few specimens of that caliber, there are more of them than a lot of collectors seem to realize. I have 66 specimens, including blanks and dummies. The vast majority of them are French, with a half dozen or so American-made ones, all using .32 S&W Long Revolver brass as a base and made by small ammo loading companies. There is a non-headstamped case from Bertram, in Australia, and Sellier & Bellot made some that exactly copied French rounds, but are anonymous (no headstamp) because they were made for insurgent forces in Viet Nam who had plenty of French weapons, not only the two Model 1935 pistol types, but also French Model 38 SMGs.

If anyone knows when the Czech rounds were made (even approximate era), I would like to know. I don’t know if the were made for the Viet Minh during the French Indo-China war, or later, for the Viet Cong. Both groups had French firearms among them.

It is absolutely correct that the 7.65 Long is based on the long bullet version of the .30 Pedersen cartridge that came about c.1919. It was trialed by the French in a pistol much like what became the 9 mm Browning High Power, made by FN, I believe as early as 1924. The first ammo had a much more rounded bullet than later, and was without headstamp. There are at least two variations of this, one with domed copper primer cup with a black primer seal and a black case-mouth seal, and one without any visible seals and with a flat brass primer. I think the earliest dated cartridge I have seen was S.F.M. 1927, although it was not really adopted by France until c.1935.

An interesting little cartridge, worthy of serious collecting. If one collects dates, there are many more than what I have, and I am sure there are many I don’t have regardless of dates. It is a nice little group of cartridges for we collectors.

Edit to correct typo in date, and add info on unheadstamped early French rounds.

John Moss

Does anyone have cartridge drawings for 7.65x20 Longue / .30 Pedersen?

The only one I’ve found is this: https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/765mm-765-French-MAS-Long-32-French-Long-Data/5715
and it’s incomplete.

This is all I have.



Here is a case diagram from Ammoguide:

7.65 french long

Thanks a lot, Pierrejean. This is the first time I see a drawing with authentic dimensions of the bullet.

Maybe this CIPsheet could be useful.7,65 long CIPsheet.pdf (98.3 KB)

Guessing a certain mr McCollum would be very interested in the drawings if he hasn’t already seen them.