7.65x20 French pistol/SMG round


#1

The 7.65mm Longue appears to be dimensionally identical to the .30 Pedersen, and I have always understood that it was a copy. Can anyone confirm this, or provide any information on the development of the French cartridge?

Thanks.


#2

Right
the Frenchs bought some Petersen ctges to develop and make trials for the new submachine gun.
and therefore the 7.65 Long is a copy of the Petersen
jp


#3

JP–It is the .30 Pe[color=red]d[/color]ersen not Pe[color=red]t[/color]ersen.


#4

you right Ron, I very often repply quickly without checking the spelling of the words.
Excuse me
jp


#5

The version of the .30 Pedersen Cartridge that the 7.65m/m French Long was based on was undoubtedly the type with long, tinned GM RN bullet of 90 grains weight, with a knurled case cannelure and a nickeled primer cup. They have an “R A 19” headstamp. although they may have been supplied from Remington in the early 1920s. French rounds with headstamps 1926 and 1927 are known, and there is are at least two variations of French unheadstamp rounds that could date from as early as 1924 and/or 1925.

Both of the unheadstamped ball rounds in my own collection have the bullet with a much more rounded ogive than that of the late 90-grain Remington bullet. However, I have an unheadstamped dummy, of French manufacture, with the bullet ogive normally associated with the 7.65mm French Long, that is, more pointed and approximately the same as the U.S. bullet of similar weight. We are not sure of the bullet weight of these early rounds - they are to scarce for us to take them apart. The 7.65 French Long as adopted in 1935 has a bullet weight of 85 to 88 grains. One of the ball rounds has a flat brass primer cup, and has no colored seals of any kind. The other has a copper primer cup with black PA and black CMS.

These rounds were probably made by Soci


#6

The cartridge John refered to as the one the 7.65m/m French long is based on is the one on the right in this picture. While it lacks the tinning on the bullet (perhaps worn off) and primer, I don’t question that it is correct.

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#7

Your long-bullet round is perfectly correct, and with the copper primer and smooth cannelure, is likely one of the ones for Remington’s project with the Browning .30-18 Automatic Rifle (not related to the BAR of WWII and Korean War fame). I would judge that the tinning is simply worn off of the jacket, as I have not seen any of these with the bullet originally copper-colored. Although pulling it slightly out of the case would tell, I wouldn’t do it if it were mine, unless I was convinced that the bullet was never tinned.

The real “French Connection” round is most likely the variation with the long 90 grain tinned bullet, knurled cannelure and nickeled primer cup, however. They are also headstamped R A 19.

Nice picture of some nice Pedersen rounds. I keep the Pedersen rounds only because the subterfuge name during the period they were highly classified referred to them as a pistol cartridge, and because they are the direct ancestor of the 7.65mm French Long. I don’t normall collect U.S. Rifle cartridges.


#8

John,
The earliest date we have seen with the post-1927 date, is the
S.F.M 1935 date.
sam


#9

I have one with a S.F.M 1932 headstamp.


#10

[quote=“JohnMoss”]The version of the .30 Pedersen Cartridge that the 7.65m/m French Long was based on was undoubtedly the type with long, tinned GM RN bullet of 90 grains weight, with a knurled case cannelure and a nickeled primer cup. They have an “R A 19” headstamp. although they may have been supplied from Remington in the early 1920s. French rounds with headstamps 1926 and 1927 are known, and there is are at least two variations of French unheadstamp rounds that could date from as early as 1924 and/or 1925.

Both of the unheadstamped ball rounds in my own collection have the bullet with a much more rounded ogive than that of the late 90-grain Remington bullet. However, I have an unheadstamped dummy, of French manufacture, with the bullet ogive normally associated with the 7.65mm French Long, that is, more pointed and approximately the same as the U.S. bullet of similar weight. We are not sure of the bullet weight of these early rounds - they are to scarce for us to take them apart. The 7.65 French Long as adopted in 1935 has a bullet weight of 85 to 88 grains. One of the ball rounds has a flat brass primer cup, and has no colored seals of any kind. The other has a copper primer cup with black PA and black CMS.

These rounds were probably made by Soci


#11

J-P - thank you for the information. I see I was not off on the story too much. I had forgotten about the 1924 drawing by SFM but remembered that date. Looks like I was wrong only in that they might have started production in 1924. The date you give for first production, 1925, fits right in and I am sure it is correct.

Do you know if there are any dates on known cartridges from the 1930s earlier than 1936? I feel sure there must be at least 1935, and perhaps even 1934.


#12

I have the following headstamps in my collection :

Plain base ( S.F.M 1925)
S.F.M 1926
S.F.M 1927
S.F.M 1928
S.F.M 1930
S.F.M 1932

chassepot


#13

Are the .30 Pedersen and 7.65 French long interchangeable? Eg. Can you fire a .30 Pedersen in a pistol chambered for 7.65 French long?


#14

Chassepot - Great information! I had not heard of any of the dates 1928, 1930 or 1932. Great stuff! Thanks for the posting. More stuff to look for!
It would seem that they made the cartridge off and on from 1925 until it was discontinued long after WWII. Does anyone know exactly when they stopped making this round in France, both when they stopped making it for the military and when they stopped making it for commercial sales?

My highest date on a military 7.65 Long round is the 4th quarter of 1960 (TS 4-60 P 7.65). Of course, I can’t tell on the commercial rounds since they are not dated.

I have now confirmed that S.F.M. 1935 exists. I find it on two different “collection lists” sent to me by friends, one from Norway 20 years ago, and more recently, one of our friends from Minnesota.


#15

John,

The later headstamps I know, are :

SFM :
SF I 4 50

Valence :

VE C 3 54

Tarbes :

TS P 4-60 7,65

Trefilerie du Havres :
TH 1937

chassepot


#16

I liked to see first Guy’s sample on the left with possibly uncorrect headstamps.
I read a 1984 article on “guns & ammo” magazine where is written that uncorrect headstamps were common on this cartridge during WWI because this was a secret project and these headstamps were used to create confusion through the german spies


#17

Pivi - as well as the round headstamped “REM-UMC .32 A C P” I have one in my collection headstamped “REM-UMC 9 m/m BS” (9 m/m Browning Short). There is an unheadstamped round reported in the Hackly, Woodin and Scranton book as well, although I have not seen one.

With the “REM-UMC 32 A C P” headstamp I have a dummy round as well, with a small hole just above the extractor cannelure and a wood rod inside the case to prevent bullet set-back. I would assume that a similar dummy probably exists with the “9 m/m BS” headstamp although, again, I have not seen one.

The Pedersen is an interesting little cartridge. I have 13 variations in my own collection, and do not collect them by date, only by visual differences and basic headstamps. That, along with their own history and their connection to the history of the 7.65 French Long, makes them very collectable as far as I am concerned. Plenty there to garner interest.


#18

Hi John,
yes,in that article there was a picture of both these “uncorrect” headstamps.
Very interesting cartridge