7,65x21 para pistola Mannlicher


#1

like to show this nice box with 50 cartridges 7,65x21 from Argentina
( Fabrica Militar de Municion de Armas Portatiles"BORGHI" )
with headstamp F.M.M.A.P.B 1947


#2

I like it. If this box were a girl, she would be a 9 (9 out of 10). She is not perfect but very close to it.


#3

These are nice boxes. They combine the Argentine Flag, a feature I like and admire, along with a picture of the cartridge. I love boxes that have pictures of the cartridge and/or the gun using the cartridge. If I had to give up most of my boxes, I would keep only those with cartridge or guns pictured on them.

These boxes are sometimes found with two different headstamps in them. The factory identifier is the same, but one has a date, 1947, and the other headstamp has the caliber instead of the date. A misture of military and commercial styles. Perhaps repacks.

John Moss


#4

Realy nice box, a little correction on the headstamp, it´s F.M.M.A.P. B 1947, and if you look with more detail to the headstamp of the cartridge despicted in the box you will read… Lew thats for you, 9mm LOL !!!.


#5

Thanks DGFM for that correction.


#6

How many dates can be found with the FMMAP hds? I think that 1947 should be the most common…


#7

Pivi - Regarding dates, I know of only two dates for 7.63 (7.65) mm Mannlicher cartridges made in Argentina, 1957 and 1958. There are also at least two headstamps that show the caliber instead of a date. Headstamps noted are:

F.M.M.A.P.“B” 7.65 mm
F.M.M.A.P.“B” 1947
F.M. “S L” -58-7.65-
F.M. S L - 7.65 -

The only box I have seen is the one pictured on this thread, sometimes filled with the 7.65 caliber-marked headstamp from Borghi, sometimes with the 1947 date, and sometimes mixed between the two. Ofr course, this is not guarantee, with surplus ammunition, that it was originally packed that way. One of our Argentine friends would have to tell us that.

With headstamp F.M. “S L” -58-7.65- I also have a round sent to me from Argentina that was supposedly a proof round, with a dot stamped into the bullet just above the case mouth. It could be a real proof, since dots on the bullet occur occasionally with Argentine pistol-caliber rounds in special loadings. However, I have never been able to verify this round, although I certainly have retained it in my collection.

John Moss.


#8

I have the FMMAP 1947 hds in my collection and I have seen always that year on 7.63 mm rounds too

These boxes are sold in Italy by a couple of dealers that sell military guns


#9

DGFM, That is actually a legit 9x19mm headstamp. I guess the company was just saving a bit on artwork.

Would like to have a photo of the companion 9x19mm box. Might have a 7.65mm headstamp illustrated.

Cheers,

Lew


#10

The “Borghi” 7.65 mm Mannlicher box, in a sense, does not have a 9 mm headstamp, although the drawing of the cartridge, the same cut used with alterations on all the early boxes, is a 9 mm Para round obviously. If you look at the headstamp with a good magnifier, you will find that the “9” was removed from the drawing, leaving no numerical designation in from of "“mm” but rather only a dot.

I think that true 9 mm boxes from Borghi are very scarce. I don’t have one in my own collection. The San Lorenzo factory only used the name "Fábrica Militar de Munición de Armas Portátiles “Borghi” from 1944 thru part of 1950. My highest date in a “B” marked cartridge is from 1948, but then I don’t collect dates, so there may be a 1949 or 1950 date.

My earliest 9mm box, one with the white stripe running horizontally, like the Mannlicher box, instead of vertically, like most later on, is the only one with a different cut for the 9 mm cartridge illustration shows the cartridge in profile but with none of the head visible. That box is from the San Francisco Plant of Fábrica Militar de Munición de Armas Portatiles.

Another box, with the white stripe now vertical, however, shows the same cut as the Mannlicher box, except the “9” in the headstamp is visible. A later box shows the same cut, but now the headstamp has been changed to F.M. “SL” 9 mm, a marking representing the San Lorenzo plant, even though the box is from San Francisco (Argentina - not California. I was afraid I might cause some confusion since most know I am from San Francisco

So, the box labels are more confusing than the cartridges, whose actual headstamps are very easy to follow if you know the progression of name changes for both factories. I can answer any questions about that, as I do have them, but that is a little off the track for this thread.

Like Lew, I, too, would love to see a picture of a 9 mm Para box(es) showing the “Borghi” name in the actual factory name on the box.

John Moss


#11

found this empty box !!


#12

Including all four headstamped variations described by John these are PROOF variations I’m aware of:

    • F.M.M.A.P.”B” 1947, Tinned brass jacketed bullet, red annulus, two notches on jacket
    • F.M.“S L” - 7,65 - 58 -, brass jacketed bullet, one mark on jacket;
    • F.M.“S L” - 7,65 - 58 -, brass jacketed bullet, red annulus, two notches on jacket;

There are also argentinian unheadstamped specimens (some could have been made for tests with a Hi-Power full-auto pistol prototype in this caliber):

    • Tinned brass jacketed bullet;
    • Tinned brass jacketed bullet, 3 stab crimp;
    • Brass jacketed bullet, 3 stab crimp, red annulus, two notches on jacket, PROOF;
    • Tinned brass jacketed bullet, Red annulus, two marks on jacket, PROOF.

#13

Can you show an example of the notches on the bullet jacket?