7.65x53 Mauser development questions

I have a few questions for you experts… I understand this cartridge is of German origin but it was used by many countries… Turkey, Belgium, and Argentina being the biggest users.

1.) I’ve been reading a rifle manual made by FN for their 98 series of rifle (no date on manual) They have the 173 or 174 grain bullet listed as a “streamlined pointed bullet with tapered base.” Which makes me believe it wasn’t round nosed. Am I right to assume this?

2.) A long while ago, I read that Belgium was issuing the round nose 7.65 Mauser version at the start of the second world war or maybe just prior to it. Would this round nose be the 1889 pattern, a 210 grain round nose bullet? Or a 174 grain ground nose bullet?

3.) I understand Mauser developed the original design in 1889. Did FN developed the light ball (154 grain) bullet? What year was the 154 grain bullet developed? I would assume prior to WW1?

4.) Who or what country/manufacturer developed the 174 grain 7.65x53 Mauser bullet? Anyone know a specific year exactly?

Thanks guys. I absolutely adore this cartridge but Wikipedia is less than useful for information about this cartridge… General information seems to be lacking in the internet about specific dates… Always appreciate any facts you guys share with me. Thanks.

The 1889 Round nose heavy (210 grain) bullet was developed by
DEUTSCHE Metallpatrone DM, formerly Lorenz, in conjunction with Mauser Development of the rifle ( both were financially controlled by Loewe).
FN also had a substantial Loewe control.
With the development of Spitzer bullets ( France, 1897, Balle D and
Germany, 1903 “S” patrone) most other nations and calibres followed suite ( USA, Britain, most of the 7,65 and 7mm users by 1910… ) Turkey and Latin America mostly changed by WWI.
I don’t know when Belgium changed its 7.65 to a 154 grain Bullet, but the Newly independant FN after 1919( DWM having lost ownership and control) began making 154 grain spitzer ammo for its Customers.
By 1930s, it was making SS - FyA 7.65 ammo ( heavy spitzer ball 175 grain, Rifle & MG ( Fusil y Ametralladora )
As to what Belgium actually adoped and used in WWI, interwar years, and beginning of WWII, one must refer to Belgian publications (official, and public) for info.
Ask JPS on Gunboards for specific info up to 1918, and the Liege Municipal Arms Museum for overall info.
Doc AV

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I find it interesting that countries developed light ball spritzers and after WW1 further development of some cartridges went on to use heavier s.S. type bullets with better aerodynamic flight with boat tails. This change lowered velocity but it’s interesting to think about.

Belgium used and produced the M89 (round nose) from the adoption of the M89 rifle till the beginning of WW2. It is only from 1930 on that they adopted the M30 (spitzer).

http://www.abbl1940.be/DOWNLOADS/La%20cartouche%20de%207,65%20Mauser%20Belge.pdf

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DK007, what is the journal or book publisher that article is extracted
From ?
Doc AV

That article comes from the belgian arms/militaria magazine AMI, May 1980 nr9. It does not longer exist.
M89 (round nose): 14,1g (about 216gr)
M30 (spitzer boat tail or SS-type): 11,8g (about 170gr)
The 154gr (S-type) was made by FN first in 1927 for export (from my observations).

Excellent, thanks for posting!

Very good. So I would assume the m30 means 1930? Developed by FN?

M89 and M30 (Model 1889 and 1930) are Belgian army designations. The M30 cartridges were only made by FN. The M89 cartridges were also made by FN (till 1939), but also by various other belgian ammo company’s (pre-WW1, except Cartoucherie Belge who made the M89 in the 20’s).

Greetz

Thanks Kurt for the information, I appreciate it.

SFM made the 154 gr. flat base spitzer for Peru at least as early as 1914. Jack

To be clear: my comments above are referring to Belgium made 7,65x53 only.
Who developed the 154gr bullet, I don’t know. The earliest made 7,65x53 S-round that I found in my notes is headstamped F.y.A. 19 02 D.M. with a CN-bullet.

Ref.the 1902 DM FyA case, in pre WWI, the date is the case mf date…sometimes cases were Loaded a year or more after manufacture of the hull.
Since the German S design came out in 1903, and was generally in use by 1905, I would assume that DM, in keeping with the Turkish contract( automatic design update) terms, made Spitzer ammo for the M1903 Turkish Mauser. And a 154gn 7.65 S bullet was easily made as was a 154gn 7.9 S Bullet ( slight change to Bullet jacket draw die, slight difference with final upset die, and presto, slightly smaller ( .312" vs .3225") bullet diameter.
Since DM and Mauser were both under the DWM stock ownership umbrella, the project was an easy one.
Doc AV

The earliest Turkish headstamp I have with Spitzer bullet is 1326, roughly 1908. All Turkish cartridges with later dates in my collection have Spitzer bullets. My understanding is that D.M. made all of the early Turkish cartridges with MAWSR in the headstamp. (Up until about 1908, possibly later). Would not FyA 19 02 D.M. and other similar headstamps have been made for Argentina?

Randy

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Certainly, rounds with the F y A headstamp (Fusiles y Ametralladoras = Rifles and Machine Guns), the Spanish-language version, would not have been made for Turkey, but rather for some Spanish speaking countries, Argentina for certain. I don’t know if this “F y A” terminology on headstamps was used by any other Spanish-language country or not.

John Moss

DWM (DM) Used what it had in store of cases…so a FyA case could be used for assembling cartridges for whoever ordered them e.g. FN ( under DWM control,) used 7.65 FyA brass to make 7mm Kortnek (7×54) for the Boers…not a successful outcome.

The 1902 date, as I said, could have been cases originally for the M91 Argentine load…and the cases utilised with a Spitzer Bullet for Mauser test firing of M1903 rifles at the Oberndorf Schuetzen Haus where accuracy and proof testing was done before consignment.
It would also be made up for pre-production testing of both rifle design and sighting calibration.
Once the rifles were delivered to Turkey ( 1905-1910) “small Mawser” marked ammunition would accompany them, firstly as both finished cartridges, and as components to the be assembled at Constantinople ( later Istanbul)
Rifle Factory. On 1908, DWM helped Turkey with a complete cartridge factory, but Turkey still imported brass strip, primers and powder from Germany till 1918, and then set up its own powder mill in 1923.

Doc AV
Collected info from different written sources over 40 years.

The earliest dates of manufacture of the ball loadings used by Argentina are:

  • M91: 1891 (DM).

  • M09/S: 1909 (DWM).
    There are DM and APG cases from 1902, but they were loaded on a later date using cases meant for the M91 load.

  • SS: 1927 (HP Dordrecht).

Turkey adoped the “S” bullet cartridge in 1903 as the “M03” and the earliest known examples are also dated 1903 (1320) and made by DWM with Arabic headstamps.

Regards,

Fede

Fede: Thank you so much for this good information. Have wondered and wondered. Jack

Thanks Fede. Excellent post