7,65x54 Belgian Mauser with headstamp CB 21


#1

Please, help me to identify manufacturer of this cartridge cal. 7,65x54 Belgian Mauser


#2

Cartoucherie Belge 1921…small Company in Belgium, producing ammo from the late 1800s ( see also “Cartoucherie Russo-Belge”), for both internal sales (Belgian Gov’t) and for Export. ?Probably absorbed after WW I by FN. I think the “Russo” part was dropped with the Russian Revolution.

More info required on this little known maker HS --More common on Pistol ammo for FN Pistols, pre-WW I, especially for export to Eastern Europe and Tsarist Russia.

Regards,
Doc AV


#3

Treshlin, is the bullet on this particular cartridge (from 1921) pointed or roundnosed? It is very interesting to me!

Ivo


#4

[quote=“Iv4o”]Treshlin, is the bullet on this particular cartridge (from 1921) pointed or roundnosed? It is very interesting to me!

Ivo[/quote]

Sorry, I have only case


#5

[quote=“DocAV”]Cartoucherie Belge 1921…small Company in Belgium, producing ammo from the late 1800s ( see also “Cartoucherie Russo-Belge”), for both internal sales (Belgian Gov’t) and for Export. ?Probably absorbed after WW I by FN. I think the “Russo” part was dropped with the Russian Revolution.

More info required on this little known maker HS --More common on Pistol ammo for FN Pistols, pre-WW I, especially for export to Eastern Europe and Tsarist Russia.

Regards,
Doc AV[/quote]

Thanks, for your answer, Doc AV

I was not sure that Cartoucherie Belge start to produce military ammo already in 1921.

As I know there was two Cartoucherie Belge:

  • first one was at the beginning (in 1896) located in Cureghem les Bruxelles. Then it was moved to Liege in 1898. And in 1899 it became a part of Cartoucheries Russo-Belge (CRB), and, I think, continue to use it’s headstamp CB. Then CRB disappeared in 1914 in Belgium
  • new Cartoucherie Belge was founded in March 1920 in Liège, with the help of FN and Eley. It was taken over by FN in 1929

#6

I have a 7.65 x 54 Mauser with headstamp C R B 10, so in 1910 at least, they were identifying themselves as Cartoucherie Russo Belge…

Randy


#7

There are only two C B headstamped 9x19mm rounds I know of. One is simply headstamped C B and the other C B 24.

I suspect both were made in the 1920s, There is no indication that I know of that 9x19mm was made in Belgium before 1921 (by FN). I believe that both of these cartridges (or at least the cases) were products of FN. The style of the “24” on the dated headstamp is identical to that on the Belgium made “P 24” headstamp which is clearly identified from a Box as a product of FN.

It may be that all CB marked production from 1920 and later is actually a product of FN.

Does anyone have cataloges or other material to shed some additional light on this?

Cheers,

Lew


#8

Manfred Beutter supplied a very nice capsule history of CRB and CB in the European Cartridge Reserach Association bulletin, “The Cartridge Researcher,” No. 482, June 2005, Pages 1 and 2:

 "This salesman sample box contains shells of the "Cartoucherie Russo-Belge," possibly of their predecessor the first "Cartoucherie Belge,"  "E" probably means "Excelsior" and "Diane" is written in correct French.  The corresponding headstamp I found in the files of FN as used by them in the years between the two world wars.  But judging by the trade-mark "Alouette," which never was used by the second Cartoucherie Belge nor by FN, these shells must originate from before 1914.  Opposed to this is the existence of the trade-mark "Legia" in this box.  For this trademark I have not found, yet, a registration before 1921.  On the other side I'm far from knowing all trade-mark registrations of the Belgian ammunition companies.  Here is a short history of CNB-CB-CRB-CB:

 "In 1884 there was established a "Manufacture Nationale Belge" at Cureghem/Bruxelles, Rue Prévinaire.  The company changed to "Societé Anonyme Cartoucherie Belge" in 1888 with the same address.  In 1898 they moved to Liège, 619 Rue St. Leonard.  On 27.05.1899 (JLM - 27 May 1899) they became "Cartoucherie Russo-Belge" and in 1900 they took over "S.

A. Anderlecht" (S.A. Pour La Fabrication Des Cartouches Et Des Projectiles) the former Charles Fusnot till 1882. Their plant in Russia was situated in a suburb of Moskau (A fragment of a record of 1899 contains information about options to buy the Russian companies of Torbeck or Inarof). This company lasted until 1914 in Belgium and in Russia until 1917 when it was confiscated. A new “Societé Anonyme Cartoucherie Belge” started in March 1920 in Liège, 615 Rue St. Leonard, with the help of FN and Eley Brothers. It was taken over by FN in 1919.

 "The first Cartoucherie Belge, and probably the CRB too, were run with funds from SFM.  They were general agents of SFM for Belgium, Netherlands and Russia.  They use several trade-marks of SFM, even a headstamp "S.F.M. Bruxelles."

#9

That cartridge case was loaded with a M. 89 cu-ni round nose bullet.

The headstamps found in 7.65 x 54 mm Mauser make an almost perfect record of the CRB and CB companies history:

C.R.B 14 - last headstamp

C B 21 - earliest headstmp
C B 22
C B 23

26 C B
28 C B - last headstamp


#10

From Cartoucherie Belge S.A. 1928 catalog:


#11

Fede: Isn’t the cupro-nickel jacketed round nose bullet standard for Belgian military issue ball ammunition in this caliber down to WW.2? Jack


#12

Jack, the spitzer bullet was already adopted in 1930 (Mod. 30 headstamped F N 30). The latest M. 89 headstamp is F N B 40.


#13

Fede: So then the spitzer and round-nosed versions were in concurrent production for about ten years. I asked because I have one of the round-nose type headstamped FN 39. Thanks. Jack


#14

Jack, that’s correct. The only boxes I have seen for M. 89 cartridges headstamped F N 39 were labeled in french/dutch and specify “pour Fusils Mitrailleurs”.


#15

Thanks all for great comments!

And the last question regarding CB cartridges:
Is it possible to confirm that this 7,63x25 Mauser cartridge was made after 1920?


#16

Treshkin, my dear friend - I cannot confirm the date, but you will see here the connection
between Cartoucherie Belge and SFM of France. The headstamp style is very SFM, and I suspect they actually made these cartridges for Cartoucherie Belge. They certainly made the cases, as the “403” is identical to that found on SFM-headstamp cartridges. Further, aside from Chinese-made spurious DWM 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge with the “K DWM K 403” headstamp of a reasonable facsimile of it, SFM is the only one who used the “403” designation on .30 Mauser cartridge, to my knowledge, other than DWM itself. I have them made for F TC I in Turkey, MSM in France, CB in Belgium and SFM itself, all with the “403” designation. It also appears on headstamps in an unusual alphabet that we all originally thought was for Ethiopia, but may also have been made for a Turkish contractor. I have two variations plus a draw set for that headstamp, all from the basement of SFM when they sold out the contents of their storage area.

Judging from Fede’s contribution to this thread, and some others, it seems that existing cartridges spell out the various connection, company names and dates that are mention in Manfred Beutter’s short history of CRB/CB. He mentioned that some funding for CB came from SFM, so it would not be surprising that they made ammunition for CB as well, as they obviously had an interest in the company.


#17

In the same family you can add the hstp SCB when it was cartoucherie de cureghem (before 1899)
I don’t know if this hstp exist for many ctges but it exist at least on some handgun ctges like 320, 380, 440, 450, 500, 32, 38, 44, Montenegrin and military riffles ctges


#18

There are also boxes M89, hs F N 39 “pour Fusils et Carabines”

About headstamps I’ve got:
earliest: CRB 05
25 C B does also exist

greetz


#19

Hello Kurt, can you post a picture of that box including any color label found on the back? I’m trying to gather every single piece of information on the 7.65 mm Mauser that I don’t have.

I have checked my files and there is also a 24 C B headstamp and a F N 39 M. 89 cartridge from a box labeled “Mitrailleuses”.


#20

I have a 9 m/m Bergmann Bayard cartridge bearing the headstamp CB, with the C at 9 o’clock and the B at 3. Bullet has CN jacket; case and primer are brass. Since there is a black primer annulus seal I’m thinking is more likely dates from the second Cartoucherie Belge of the 1920s rather than the earlier organization. Any thoughts? Jack