7.7x58 Japanese ID


#1

The cartridge on the right is a German 7.92x57 for comparison only, the left cartridge measures 8x58mm and has a different shoulder, what is it?


#2

From the measurement and the primer, it looks to me to be a steel-cased, 7.7 mm Japanese round. With no measurement of the rim, and with the photo cut off at the bottom just about the rim, not sure if it is the rimless version, or the semi-rimmed, but I believe it is probably the former. I forget if these were made in both types, to be honest.


#3

Thanks, John, you are right, I fished it out of a 8mm Mauser discount bin and my mind set was “8mm Mauser” because of this, it looks rimless to me.


#4

My initial reply disappeared into the ether somewhere along the way but I will add that this is a 7.7mm Type 99 Ball round and the slightly rounded bullet profile identifies it as being the 183gn rifle loading as opposed to the more streamlined 203gn machine gun load.


#5

Japanese 7,9 Steel cased ammo ( for German Aircraft MGs and Japanese Clones ( Air Force) used a Three Stab Primer Crimp, similar to 6,5 Crimp.
The Steel cased T99 cartridge (7,7 Rimless) Used the Normal Japanese Full Ring Crimp.

Both are occasionally found Mixed at Old Japanese Air4field sites in the Pacific Islands, New Guinea, etc…Very hard to distinguish, especially if Corroded.

Doc AV


#6

“Japanese 7,9 Steel cased ammo ( for German Aircraft MGs and Japanese Clones ( Air Force) used a Three Stab Primer Crimp, similar to 6,5 Crimp.”

I have never heard of or seen any steel-cased Japanese 7.92 ammunition, and no examples are mentioned in “Elks”. Can you please provide a pic or reference to any examples?


#7

Jonnyc,

Look at IAA Journal #445 pages 26 to 28, “Japanese Army 7.9mm Type CHI LMG Ammunition”.

Brian

Oops! Just realized you want the steel cased Air force version not the brass cased Army version. That’s what happens when your in a hurry.


#8

I’m actually interested in seeing any Japanese steel-cased 7.92 ammunition. I will have to dig up #445.


#9

Jon and BD - I have reviewed the article in Issue 445 of the IAA Journal of September/October 2005, pp. 26-28. Unless I missed something in this short but excellent article, there is no mention of any kind concerning any steel-case 7.9 x 57 mm ammunition of Japanese manufacture.

Further, review of “Japanese Ammunition 1880-1945, Part I,” by Ken Elks, pp 76-77, makes no mention of any load, for any service, of the 7.9 x 57 mm cartridge in a steel case.

Until disposed off a couple of years ago, I had, if I may say so, a world-class collection of 7.9 x 57 mm cartridges, roughly 12,600 specimens including a pretty good Japanese section. I collected, and studied, the cartridge for about 20 years. I have never seen, nor have I ever read any reference before, to a steel-case 7.9 mm cartridge for the Japanese Air Force or any other arm of the Imperial Japanese forces.

To the cause of “never saying never” if such a round exists, I would love to see a picture of the cartridge in profile, as well as the head of the cartridge (headstamp or plain head), published on this forum as proof of existence. Until such time, I will have to opine that all of the 7.9 x 57 mm ammunition made in Japan was loaded in brass cases.

The air force was an Army Air Service, with the IJ Navy also having an air service.


#10

Glenn/Stonewall just sent me a copy of the article, and I have to agree with you, John, no mention of steel case 7.92 Japanese ammunition.

Doc, you seem pretty sure of your information. If correct, can you please supply some source?


#11

If it helps, my original non-headstamped round in this post is highly magnetic, but the projectile is not.


#12

I was so intrigued by big time collectors’ response to this round that I took a known 7.7x58 semi-rimmed round for Type 92 Heavy Machine Gun and put it side by side with this steel one.



#13

I believe the cartridge in question is a Japanese manufactured steel case 7.7x58 intended for the T99 LMG.
This is because of the shape of the projectile, it is a MG projectile, not a rifle projectile.
Gregg


#14

I have had only one example of steel cased Japanese Made 7,9mm ammo; it came mixed with some Brass cased 7,7 T99 rounds from New Guinea; knew that 7,7 was also made in steel (Elks Book), but what gave it away was the Primer Crimp on the steel case…THREE stabs at 120 degrees, just like the 6,5mm T38 ammo; I then compared it with the 7,7 rounds of known provenance, and the shoulder Position, OAL was different; when compared with a German 7,9 Steel cased round, the “suspect” was almost identical (DIAMETERS, PROFILES, ETC.).

I no longer have my cartridge collection, having dispersed it some years ago during my Heart Op. recovery.

Regards,
Doc AV


#15

[quote=“Gregg”]I believe the cartridge in question is a Japanese manufactured steel case 7.7x58 intended for the T99 LMG.
This is because of the shape of the projectile, it is a MG projectile, not a rifle projectile.
Gregg[/quote]

Hi Gregg,
I may well be sticking my neck on the chopping block here but I believe that you have this the wrong way round! My understanding is that the slightly ‘fatter’ bullet is the rifle loading and the ‘slimmer’ streamlined bullet is for the machine gun. I appreciate that the difference isn’t obvious but when the two variants are compared side by side it becomes very apparent.
My tracer & armour piercing examples aslo have the same streamlined contour and I’m sure these specialist loads would have been intended for MG use rather than for the rifle.


#16

Jim is right, the “slimmer streamlined bullet is for the machine gun.” Jean Huon has a close up photo in his book on page 115 specifically showing the rifle and machine gun bullets side my side. He identifies the slimmer more streamlined bullet as the “machine gun bullet” also. I can add something more to this; I bought four thirty-round WWII Japanese hotchkiss machine gun strips. All four are loaded with the slimmer more streamlined bullet. But, the thing to me that is so interesting is that the cartridges are all rimless and not the more common semi-rimmed. All four are in the original fiber-board/cardboard container, and the container are labeled for the Type 92 MG. Until I found these strips, I had assumed that the Type 92 only fired semi-rimmed. Since getting these strips, I researched this more and found out that the Type 92 could fire both semi-rimmed and rimless. There also existed the replacement machine gun for the Type 92, it was called the Type 1 and was a simplified version of the Type 92. Now the Type 1 could only fire the rimless cartridge.