Ok gents, I have another question here. I know what all the markings are and what they mean, I also speak German so it’s easy for me to interpret. BUT… I’m asking you experts, is it possible to have two different loads on the exact same lot of ammo being manufactured? As you can see from the pictures I have two cartridges, both from same manufacturer, year, and lot number, but two different loads. Is this possible?
I also have an S.m.K-v-Trop exactly the same but lot 4. Again, did they stop in the middle of a run to stop V loads or something like that?
The plot thickens… lot number 8 is a S.m.K-Trop load. Looks like they changed loads several times in full swing.
Well, the answer to the first question is yes, and no. I say that because the lot number on the case, and even the factory code, only identifies the case lot number, not the loading lot, and the factory code is for the case-maker, in this instance Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., werk Selterhof. Even the date is only representative of the year the case was made; the cartridge could have been load in the next year, etc.
You cannot identify the loading information from the case headstamp, but rather only from a box label.
But yes, it is possible to have more than one load with the same case manufacturers code, case material, lot number and year. I had four different loads once when I collected this caliber, all with the same headstamp. One was a Platzpatrone 33, so since that was likely a reject case used to make a blank, it “almost” doesn’t count. The three other cartridge were all tactical loads.
Ah John that’s right, it’s all about the box info too!! Thanks again… now… what do you think this is sir? I believe it is the elusive B-Patrone-v-Trop. I see what appears to be the remnants of a black seal around the case neck. What do you think John? Do I have a chicken dinner here? I believe I do since I can compare it to other non trop B loads.
What I find more weird, is that you can have one productionlot where some or all of the components are different. See attached boxlabels for lot P207 39. L. 38. Here, the powder are from two different companies, and the bullets, cases and primers are different lot’s. I always believed that one lot was made from the same components, same lot’s. But I have several boxes like this from different producers.
We must keep two things apart, the cartridge and the case lot.
There were factories that only made sS, SmE and blank 33 are known. Most of the time leftovers or bad cases were shipped to other plants who made the blanks.
A cartridge lot for these rounds were made in high numbers. For example “dou” 68 case lots are known from 1944 and 60 cartridge lots. In 1944 a case lot were about 3,5 million cases.
An cartridge order from the air force was not so high as an order from the ground force (Heer)
If one cartridge order was made, they started with the second with the same case lot.
This is the reason why you can find more than one cartridge types with the same lot.
Some cartridge lots were very small. They were probably between 1500 and 6000 rounds.
The example shows cartridges who were made on the 4th and 5th of April 1940. You see the cartridge lot 130 was made by the first shift, lot 131 by the second and lot 132 by the first shift next day. From this cartridge are over 300 cartridge lots known from 1940.
hfhubbard11 - you are possibly correct in your identification of that cartridge. It is the Beobachtungspatrone-verbesserte (B.-Patr.-v.) and I see the narrow band at the neck that appears to be a black “tropic pack” identification, but I don’t see any of the black from that band spilling over onto the case mouth. You are in a better position to judge than I, since you have the cartridge at hand.
Dutch - psg1 was speaking not of the case lot number, but of the loading lots on the two labels he shows. Both are Patronen s.S. and both labels, surprisingly to me with very different formats, are for P.207 Loading lot 38 of 1939, yet reflect different lot numbers for all four of the cartridge components, case, powder, bullet and primer. The powders are not even the same make.
I had instances of this in my box collection also, where the same loading lots used different components from each other. You would think that for a loading lot number to have significance, all components of those cartridges would be uniform in the lot numbers of the components as well.
One of the things that I never figured out, either, when I was collecting 7.9 x 57 mm rounds.
All, that is great information. I have read a lot about boxes and that information on the boxes but I don’t have very many, I only have a few specimens. I’m sure when I get bored of that I’ll get into boxes lol… anyway, John, here’s a picture of the V-Trop next to a normal B-Patrone and another B-Trop. I can notice a difference but even under magnification I can’t see a spill over on the round in question, but it looks good. I hope I find a better specimen later on…
Dutch, nice boxes. Have any for sale?
This lot; “auy S* 5 41” is known as B Patr, B Patr -v and B-Patr. v-trop.
So yours is a B Patr.-v
Here are all known B-Patronen. From L. to R.
B-Patrone. first model
B-Patrone. second model
B-Patrone .CWS case
B- Patrone v
B-Patrone v trop
B-Patrone trop. lacquered steel case
B-Patrone v trop. lacquered steel case
German specification for cases St and St+ as of September 1944:
“The first two sublots [sublot 180000 cases] of a new lot [up to 3 million cases] may contain cases having the headstamp of the previous lot.”
The German acceptance system did not yet have the strict change of a lot number as soon as one component was changed. I have no explanation for the extreme P207 example shown by Psg1.
Cool pictures Dutch! I should have been more specific when I said one of each I meant just the ones I was talking about. I know I need a few more to complete…