7.9 grenade blanks box 1944

Hello,
Here is a 15-round grenade blanks box for “gross Gewehr Panzergranate”.
This box is similar to that shown page 8-4 in the book “Die Patrone 7,9mm den deutschen Wehrmacht” by Windisch, Micke, Kellner.
However, a few differences which call for questions :

  1. Here the powder is an unusual Nz Stb. P n/A (0,8-0,8), with a loading of 1.9g. What is this powder which seems to replace the usual grenade propelling powder NZ T.P. (1,4-2-0,5/0,25)also keeping the same standard loading charge of 1,9g.

  2. Note that the wood bullet is specified"Schwarz"= black , would there be other colours of wood bullet for the same grenade ?

  3. For the cartridge case, lot number is given 40/44 versch. L : various lots from 1940 to 1944 ? or 40/44 means something else ?

  4. Last but not least this box has been found filled with 15 identical SmE rounds (edq St+ 20 44), this was a vintage stuffer since that box was retrieved by EOD officers in a farm in North-East of France near German border. So which type of grenade blanks was originally in that box ?

Thanks in advance for any comment.

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Note that the propellant is the same as used for 9 mm Pistolenpatrone 08. If correct, it could simplify propellant logistics.
Otherwise I am afraid I cannot contribute anything, except that your assumption 3 is correct: “verschiedene Lieferungen” from the years 40 through 44 (not necessary every year).

Congrats on finding an excellent box label. Very nice! -Ger

This as an interesting label.

The Große Gewehrgranat Patrone was packet to the grenade.
This means, in the field were no “Treibpatrone” available.
The box label shows that the grenades were packed by “cdo” (Theodor Bergmann, Plant Velten)
An explanation could be that this round was send this way to the factory.


GGGran

For practice shooting there must be also additional cartridges being available.
I would like to show a similar one who is to my opinion a reprint from after WW2.

Jochen, I don’t think the explanation 40/44 means the cases used were made between 1940/1944.
The “new” model cartridge was introduced in 1943 and no earlier year on a head stamp is known. The 40th lot of 1944 make no cense because the lot number from the case was in 1944 not mentioned on the label.

Why they changed the powder; Nz. T. P (Nitro Zellulose Treiber Pulver) to the pistol powder is an other question. Perhaps it was a loading for practice shooting, however 1,9 gram of pistol powder in a rifle case is not explainable for me. The pressure must be extremely high.

The model change from the cartridge was in 1943. (new model on the right).
GGGpat

Rgds

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Thank you very much for these first comments.

Keep in mind that this box was found in a farm with SmE and not the original content.

Concerning the 40/44 designation for the cartridge case could this mean type 40 modified 44 ? Was the early cartridge case ever referenced as type 40 ? And the later as type 44 ?

Here under a 1942-dated grenade which belongs to a full crate discovered by EOD in a private house in the same region near German border.
Note that the propulsing grenade is of the lengthened type.

image

For the charge of the powder with the pistol type, it might be pure coincidence that it is the same charge mass of 1.9g than with the other dedicated powder T.P .
Maybe Jochem might comment on the internal ballistics of such large charge of the pistol powder ?

Anyway, a good subject of discussion

In 1942 the first „Treibpatronen“ from “eej” were noticed.
Before this time they were made by “dnf” (Rheinisch-Westf.-Sprengstoff A.G) who also developed this cartridge.
The identification was made by the annulus colour. Yellow = Spreng, black = Panzer, red = Propaganda.The 1th and 2th model cartridge identification was identical.

By the introduction from the Große Gewehr Panzergranate in August 1942, a new cartridge with a long case was developed. The “eej” lots 3, 5, 6 and 7 from 1942 are known.
Because the showed grenade is made in 1942, one of these “Treibpatrone” lots must be by the grenade. If not, please let me know.

I can recoment an excellent book “ Deutsche Gewehrgranaten und Gewehrgranatengeräte bis 1945“,
written by Michael Heidler. ISBN 978-3-86619-051-1

Rgds

I consider the rifle grenade as ballistically extremely tricky. Contrary to an ordinary shot, the hot gases at first can expand easily into the large bore volume, the wooden bullet being no serious obstacle. Then the fast flowing gases encounter the comparatively heavy grenade which only starts moving very slowly. We know nothing about how this sort of “gun” behaves and any statement would be pure speculation on my part.
Willem is of course right in pointing out that 1.9 g is a very large charge for pistol powder. But a charge of about 2.0 g would be necessary to have enough energy available. We do not know how the pistol powder reacts to the initial large void in the barrel.

P.S. I suspect that in the name Nz.T.P. the “T” stands for itself, because of the T-shaped powder kernels, 2 mm by 1.4 mm wide with a web thickness of 0.5 mm (cross of the T) and 0.25 (stem of the T). It would be very interesting to have a look at a powder sample (graphited or porous?).
In a US Naval Technical Mission report (AD-A953125) it is named “Flügel-(T)-Pulver 1893” (1893 being the Rottweil number.) But no data beyond the dimensions and the use for rifle grenades…

Hello,

For Willem, indeed the lengthened grenade blank with the bgk42 grenade I showed is eej 5 42
c546b9bd-0895-4718-8d86-c97d5bd3638e
I have just ordered from Michael Heidler his book on rifle grenades, thanks for the advise.

For Jochem, concerning the T shaped powder, this powder can be seen in sectionned cartridges on pages 8-2 and 8-3 of the book “Die Patrone 7,9mm den deutschen Wehrmacht” by Windisch, Micke, Kellner.

Cheers

Thank you for the hint. The powder looks like its not graphited, which would indicate a porous, fast burning powder. (Graphite would close the pores, counteracting the intended enlargement of kernel surface to get fast burning. Therefore its not applied here.)

I could not resist, so I pulled a Treibpatrone apart.
Well the powder is as described in the book.

t-powder1

Great ! Thank you for sacrificing a round for the sake of general knowledge :-).
At least we can identify the T in the powder designation as T-shaped.

Next mystery to solve , the 40/44 designation of the cartridge case …

The powder looks a lot like what DAG later stuffed into it’s plastic NATO blanks!

Hans