7.9 ss-tv


#1

This photo was sent to me from a Russian dealer who found and sold a belt of these before I found him. Has anyone seen one available yet ?


#2

Despite what a lot of Collectors have previously disputed, about "specific “SS” manufacture ammo, The Russian and Ukrainian finds ( and some Concentration camp site rubbish dumps) certainly confirm that up to about 1942-43, when the SS and other “Non Wehrmacht Party organisations” came under the supply umbrella of the Wehrmacht (HWA), especially after Albert Speer became Hitler’s Munitions Minister (late 41).
That the SS aquired all its ammo supplies by “Private Purchase” from the major German makers, and after 1939, from captured nation Stocks and “commercial” manufacture under Nazi control in those countries.

The sites where such “non-Wehrmacht” ammo ( Polish, Czech, DWM and Polte Clandestine export ammo, and the “SSTV” marked ammo are all ascertained Waffen SS or SS Polizei battle sites or execution grounds during the Russian Campaign “Barabrossa” and also, recent finds of depot ammo (repacked by the Soviets) lots of “Czech” (commercial) Wartime ammo was also found (both SB and Z headstamps, as was supplied to Sweden, in another deal).

Mostly finds of battlefield ammo has been empty cases, much the worst for wear, and sometimes barely legible. One Ukrainian searcher had listed some 20 different (non-Wehrmacht) headstamps he had found. ( and posted on Gunboards some two years ago, with HS photos)

Is the case photographed a “Galvaniziert” case ( copper or brass plated steel) or a “lackiert Stahl” ( grey lacquered steel?. 1939 seems a bit early for the grey steel cases ( usually late 1940s, 41)…The primer could be a tarnished zinc ZdH30,(non corrosive) or be a tarnished brass ZdH 88 ( corrosive and mercuric); can’t quite make it out.
Green primer lacquer is Ball (sS).
What condition were the Gurt 34 in? what is visible is pretty rusty.

Nice find, anyway, the photo at least.

More photos and info required(where found , any other associated equipment etc (say an MG34 or even a 42?)

The trouble with a lot of these finds are that they are done by scavengers, and not “military archeologists” who would note other associated items, and almost be able to “date” the find wrt battles, Troop movements, etc.

“grave robbers” just rip the stuff out, without any care for the context of the find…or for historic knowledge. They are driven by greed ( like tomb raiders the world over)…because a lot of these sites (esp. in Russia) are Field graves, where soldiers are buried where they fell.

BTW, the Ukrainian researcher had linked his various finds with discrete Waffen SS units in “Front North” ( the road to Leningrad).

Nice one,

Regards, and thanks for sharing,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
Brisbane Australia


#3

NICE FIND!!!


#4

Prior to this the particular headstamp was only known in blank. When I found this fellow and offered him far more than he got for the belt he was sick but alas too late. I had hoped that some of them would start showing up in Europe but it looks like no luck yet. I have studied this matter of SS ammo quite a bit and my conclusions can be read on Auctionarms.com with my listings for SS ammo. The SS could not count on the Wehrmacht for weapons and ammo supply early on. They knew that. They worked to develope their own supply chain and did in several cases. So far no boxes have been seen. Was it all belted for MG? Some fired cases show that they have been fired from rifles but no boxes have been forth coming.


#5

It is a distressed brass case . No further info at this time. He said it was a 50 round belt. Condition ??


#6

I guess the only way I’ll ever have one of these is to go back to Russia and buy a spade.


#7

They already showed up in europe.
The rounds I seen are all pulled.
The first sS rounds seen with this headstamp.

451kr.


#8

[quote=“CSAEOD”]This photo was sent to me from a Russian dealer who found and sold a belt of these before I found him. Has anyone seen one available yet ?

[/quote]

It is a nice story but not correct.

In the belt that was found only a few TV-SS 1939 rounds were linked.

Because it was unknown as a sS (schweres Spitzgeschoss) round until now, I am still considering cleaning the round or leave it in the


#9

I have this one ( DWM 1938 SS-TV )

regards
gyrojet


#10

[quote=“Dutch”][quote=“CSAEOD”]This photo was sent to me from a Russian dealer who found and sold a belt of these before I found him. Has anyone seen one available yet ?

[/quote][/quote]

It is a nice story but not correct.

In the belt that was found only a few TV-SS 1939 rounds were linked.

Because it was unknown as a sS (schweres Spitzgeschoss) round until now, I am still considering cleaning the round or leave it in the


#11

[quote=“451kr”]They already showed up in europe.
The rounds I seen are all pulled.
The first sS rounds seen with this headstamp.

451kr.[/quote]

They had to pull them to get them out of Russia. What is amazing is that they can actually get this stuff out at all. In my day the only folks who risked getting caught with ammo in the Soviet Union , without permission, were the really hard core criminals. I tried to get the black market types to come up with ammo many times - no way.

NOW THERE ARE COLLECTORS THERE. THANK YOU RONALD REGAN !


#12

The SS “ball round” with no maker’s designation on it that is alluded to in this Forum thread is probably the one in my collection. Before I knew anything much about 7.9s (please note that I am not intimating that I know a lot about them now), I felt that my round was simply an inerted original, bullet pulled, powder dumped, and bullet reseated. The lack of a primer crimp and color primer seal did not bother me because of the special nature of the headstamp. I have lots of rounds in my collection, absolutely correct, original Germanl rounds, that have no primer crimps for one reason or another.

When I learned that this round had only ever been found in a blank, I got suspicious of it. Not so long ago, when pictures of the ball round with green seal and crimped primer first appeard, it became clear to me that my round is, in essence, a primed empty case - a blank that was disassembled for some reason or another, and then later had a normal bullet pushed into the case. THE DANGER OF NOT LEAVING FIRED OR PRIMED EMPTY CASES ALONE, INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE THEM SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT BY PUTTING A BULLET INTO THEM.

I consider the round I have to be nothing more than I just described, and simply have ot gotten around to pulling out the bullet and throwing it away yet. My biggest regret is that in my ignorance, not knowing they had been found only as blanks, I thought it was real and mentioned it to various people during discussion of the SS-headstamped rounds I have. Again, I am positive now that it NEVER was a ball loading, but rather just a blank missing the powder, wad and mock bullet. I apologize to all that I misled about the existance of a ball round with no crimps or primer seal in this headstamp.


#13

WOODIN LAB SAID THAT THEY ALSO HAVE ONE AS YOU DESCRIBED.

HERE ARE THE PICTURES FROM WOODIN LAB.


DO YOU HAVE A BLANK WITH BRASS RATHER THAN COPPER PRIMER WITH THIS HS. ?


#14

HERE IS MY 4 HOLES DUMMY FROM THE SS TRASH PIT AT BUCHENWALD CAMP.





#15

Next time I am at the Lab, which I hope will be later this summer, I will have to check that round for neck crimp and to see if there is powder in it. Off hand, I would suspect it is the same situation as mine, although I am not sure. However, I note in the photo that the neck crimp is very slight on it compared to the other two, perhaps from being open by inserting an s.S. bullet in it rather than the wood bullet I believe it might have had.

Best to examine them up close, and not from a photo. Maybe I will wait to pull mine apart until I see the one at the Lab, since it appears to have the same slight crimp as mine.

I still suspect mine as a blank, however.


#16

I have one more variant of SS TV case… With a black circle around primer (!!!)… It is found in Belarus… Only a case… Without a bullet…

Here forum.violity.kiev.ua/download.php?id=112576 my photo from the Ukrainian archaeological forum…

Other cases are found in Ukraine and in Russia…


#17

That is certainly a black annulus which leads back to the question; did the SS have service loads other than blanks in this HS without primer crimps ?

1)All of the blanks of this HS which I have seen so far have copper primers and no annulus color.
2)The “ball” rounds from Woodin Lab and John Moss collection with this headstamp and no primer crimps have brass primers.
3)This case with no crimps on the primer and a black annulus implies;
a - they loaded a blank with black annulus
b - they loaded a B-Patrone without primer crimps
c - they loaded an API without primer crimps
d - they loaded an “S” ball without primer crimps

IS THERE ENOUGH OF THE MOUTH LEFT TO SEE THE MOUTH CRIMP ?

Facts are hard things and we are still looking for some here.

Some collectors do not want to believe that the SS made dummies out of fired cases.

See above the proof that they did.

This round came out of an SS trash pit at Buchenwald.

I also have a chromed dummy which came from a Veteran of the LAH division who reported that they used these in the honor guard unit. This has been previously posted.

Neither of these came from cartridge collectors AND neither were priced to reflect that the owners had any idea about the rarity and value of such items to a collector. The 4 hole dummy , for instance , cost me more to have shipped from Germany than it cost to buy!

A stripper clip marked for SS also exists in the Regenstreif collection.

Bottom line on all of this is that we know very little about these ammo production details .

A good place to start figuring some of this out is this : who made the cartridges WITHOUT the DWM mark ? Are there DWM cases without primer crimps ?

We know for sure that the SS manufactured rifles at Buchenwald and elsewhere. Was this ammo without primer crimps made by the SS in one of their camp operations?

I read a few months back that an archive of SS records which has been sealed to the public since the war has recently been opened for public research. Maybe a German researcher could get in there and find some paperwork.

I don’t think that Bill Woodin will pull the bullet on his ball round. Maybe John Moss will ? Maybe the weight of these rounds will tell something and then MAYBE NOT !


#18

Well, it turns out my SS TV 1939 round probably has powder after all. The following are the weights of my SS rounds:

DWM SS 1938 405.1 grains (26.25 grams)
DWM SS-TV 1938 412.6 grains (26.68 grams)
SS TV 1939 414.4 grains (26.83 grams)

The round SS TV 1939, I confirm here, has a brass primer cup, the same as the other two rounds. It has no primer crimps. I can find not a hint that it ever had a primer seal of any color.

One thing is for sure - the SS TV 1939 round has been tampered with. The bullet is not seated as deeply as it should be, giving an overall cartridge length of 2.3265" (59.10m/m) as opposed to that of DWM SS 1938 with OAL of 2.285" (58.04m/m) and DWM SS-TV 1938 with OAL of exactly the same dimensions 2.285" (58.04m/m).

The crimping groove of the bullet in the SS TV 1939 round is almost completely showing above the case neck. The mouth shows almost no roll crimp at all, but the neck shows a double diameter for a length of about 0.145" (3.69m/m). Neck diameter from the mouth down to the increase in diameter is 0.3515" (8.94m/m) with the diameter from the increased size to the shoulder about 0.360" (9.14m/m).

I do not believe for a minute that this dual-diameter neck represents any sort of factory crimp at all, but rather that the cartridge has been fooled with in one way or another. Since I don’t have the SS TV 1939 round in a platzpatrone 33, I guess I cannot make any real judgment on whether my rounds was originally a PP33 or a ball round; I can only judge that it has been tampered with.

The two DWM SS rounds show the normal, very evenly applied roll-type mouth crimp with none of the bullet’s crimping groove visible to the eye.Both have threee-stab primer crimps and green PAs.

I don’t know that this helps a bit, but there it is, anyway, for anyone interested. Comments regarding tampering are my opinion, and remember that we are talking about my cartridges in this answer here, not any from the Woodin Laboratory collection.


#19

As I wrote before, the SS was buying there ammo as a civilian person/company like Police, customs etc.
If somebody ordered a big quantity of ammo they can decide what kind of head stamp the case gets. Well they ordered 2 x sS round by DWM in 1938.
Unfortunately we still don


#20

I am aware that you are a doubting Thomas and we all have the right to be wrong-at least we used to in the US. For the future , who knows. My sources on items mentioned are solid but you are certainly welcome to your opinion. My question stands; has anyone seen a 39 ss blank with brass primer ? Both Moss’s and Woodin’s ball loaded SS 39s are NOT on fired cases. Both of these fellows are pretty well versed in what ammo looks like and can tell fired cases. Your implication that these may be fired cases which were reprimed is off. They could be down loaded blanks or new primed cases with a bullet stuck in. Had either been a fired case reworked that would have been noticed.

I will explain how if you are unaware.

As for other photos which were removed from posts; when I established a new account I had no interest in relisting all of the photos previously posted. Too much effort.

As I recall you were one of the folks who said that the SS 39 hs was only in blank. Well ? I heard that from several. Fact is ALL were wrong. Further fact is that we know virtually nothing about the SS ammo and until PAPERWORK shows up EVERYTHING IS SPECULATION.

The owners of DWM made ammo for Himmler who was their buddy. That we know.

The owner of the DWM factory was an insider with Himmler and was given the contract.(Gunther Quandt - The marriage of Gunther Quandt’s ex-wife Magda to Joseph Goebbels initially linked the Quandt family to the Nazis, but Guenther Quandt and his sons all played significant independent roles in the Third Reich. Each eventually became a member of the Nazi party, and, more importantly, the Quandt firms of AFA and DWM (as well as the heavily Quandt-invested Daimler-Benz) utilized slave labor from the concentration camps of Hannover-Stcken, Mauthausen, and Sachsenhausen. In the immediate post-war period, the Quandts were subject to close scrutiny and heavy fines as a result of denazification.In March 1933 Quandt contributed 25,000 marks to the party as “insurance,” actually joined the party later that year, and eventually became implicated in the crimes of the Nazi regime via the Quandts’ prominent role in the armaments industry. One of the most infatuated of Hitler’s admirers was the beautifull and ambitious Johanna Maria Magdelene (Quandt) Goebbels, married from 1921 to 1929 to Gunther Quandt, chairman of the board of the potash firm Wintershall and owner of Accumulatoren-Fabrik AG (AFA), Bayerish Motor Werken (BMW) and since 1928 of large-scale munitions manufacturer Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM). Quandt was one of the first NSDAP financiers as soon as 1930, along with Dr. Kurt Schmitt, General Director of Allianz und Stuttgarter Verein Versicherungs AG insurance firm and August von Finck, chairman of the supervisory board of the same company. Madga divorced Gunther Quandt in 1930 with a monthly alimony of 4,000 marks to marry in December 1931 the diminutive and club-footed Paul Josef Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Director.)*****

Himmler offered Gunther a General’s position in the SS which he declined - (lucky for him) . This kept him out of the war crimes trial .

As far as the 39 production without maker stamp EVERYTHING IS SPECULATION and in the past has been wrong. This now proven by specimens obtained outside the collecting circle.

In matters such as this I only trust items which come from outside the collecting circles. They do not carry the prejudices of the collecting community which are so obvious.

FIND A BOX ! FIND SOME PAPER !