7.92 export question

I would like some info please, Did Lithuania supply bullets in 7,92 to Belgium FN in the mid 1930,s. This pic was posted on a different site which is and ordnance collectors site. The owner of the round says its a Lithuanian bullet, in a Belgium case. even tho the case has been fired! I feel that its a German WWI with a damage base mark of UN UN=RWS RWS Nurnberg or could be DM= Deutsche Waffen u. Munitionsfabriken Karlsruhe i.B…thanks Paul.

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I cannot comment on the bullet shown with the FN case. However, rather than Lithuania selling bullets to FN, in the early 1930s FN actually made 7.9 x 57 ammuntion for Lithuania.

Other than the first production lot, which included the Lithuanian National Crest on the headstamp (picture below, from my own specimen when I collected this caliber), they were in the format shown by timeout.

LithuanianCrestHdstmp0001

John Moss

What type of bullet is that Paul…is it an S type or an sS type? To my eye the mark on the bullet base is very similar to the Lithuanian National Crest as per John’s very nice headstamp. My understanding is that Belgium supplied ready-loaded ammunition to Lithuania but if the base mark is indeed Lithuanian it would suggest that Lithuania manufactured at least some of their own bullets…if the bullet is original to the case.

Jim, That crest is absolutely a square-angle figure made up of verticle and horizontal lines. I don’t think it is the one on the bullet pictured, as that, if I am seeing right, has at least two, perhaps three, visible curved lines. I could be wrong, It is a tough picture to assess, and my close vision on anything blurred on a computer screen is open to question. :-(

John

John, maybe this aids you?

EOD - it actually aids me in believing the bullet marking is NOT the Lithuanian Crest. Thank you. Wish I knew how to do stuff like that on a computer. I am an absolute moron when it comes to computer stuff (some would say I am an absolute moron about everything - I really couldn’t quibble over that assumption). :-)

John

Good morning Gents, Sorry for the late response, …Jim - Looking at the base I would say that it is an S Patrone and not an Ss because you can see more of the lead core. plus if it was Ss patrone you would see the boat tail and more of the jacket. My understanding is S patrone went out of production in the 20’s. As it is a fired case I think we can safely say that the bullet never started life with this case.
John, That photo of yours of the headstamp can I please use it in my answer to the other guy, I will of course credit you?
EOD- I have asked for another photo, we will just have to see if he responds. Thanks to all …paul.

Could this be a reloaded case maybe?

Paul, I would not discount the possibility of this case being loaded with an S-type bullet because of the 1937 case date. FN would have loaded whatever bullet type the customer wanted. I have FN production for Lithuania with a 1931 headstamp (S-type) and 1935 (sS-type). It’s difficult to make out any primer annulus colouring in your photo however the two types would have been coloured in accordance with the German system. EOD’s artwork definitely makes me think the bullet base mark is more likely the Lithuanian crest.

Jim… the bullet cant be from that case as its a fired case… I think a bullet has been put into the case at a later date, by who I dont know. But if FN exported complete rounds to Lithuania then I would have an unmarked FN bullet and that has to be a replacement by a collector putting the wrong bullet in the case. If FN only supplied cases and the bullet was loaded in Lithuania then to know if the bullet is right for the case you would need to know if the S type bullet was still in production in 1937. I think it was around 1923-25 when it was not made in Germany anymore and by the mid 20’s the s.S type had replaced it. It would be hard to believe that any company would be nearly 20 years behind the times, as they would have been aware of the longer range and accuracy of the s.S type…paul

Timeout - you can use the photo as you like, and there is no particular need to credit me. I did take the picture, as I had the cartridge at the time, but it is not important to me at all to get credit for things like that. I enjoy doing it and sharing what I can.

I do appreciate you asking though, although for the folks on this forum, that is not even necessary to me if they want to use a picture I have posted, or some other reference.

John

But John, this looks just like EOD has drawn it:
grafik

Why you said, you think, its NOT the lithuanian crest??

Sincerely
Peter

Peter - I am not disputing that what EOD drew, very nicely by the way, is the Lithuanian Crest. It most certainly is. It is what it is covering that still does not look to me, on my screen, to be the same marking. There are several non horizontal or perpendicular elements that I believe are part of the bullet-base markings. Could I be interpreting them incorrectly - sure, that’s a possibility, but all I can comment on is what my eyes see.

John Moss

Just a question: did FN stamp its bullets?

FN and Winchester/WCC were still making an S load (154gn) well into the 1950s ( Winchester order for INA, Jakarta…I have an embossed Winchester Red&black crate, with Jakarta Address ( also embossed).
And of course, ROC and PRC made S loads into the 1950s. I don’t know about Spain and Italy; Yugoslavia certainly made S up to WWII, but after??? ( M24/47, M98/48, and M48 all sighted for sS.).
Just from collection observations.
Doc AV

I dont have many Lithuanian 7,92 but the ones I do have are s.S type bullets.
A 37 D 7
L 39 D 4
L 40 D
L 40 D 5
L 40 D 7
L 40 D 11
I dont think I have seen any FN marked bullet. The latest date in my collection for an FN S type bullet is 1931 with a headstamp FN 7 31.

paul.

FN produced the type S bullet loaded in cases of the headstamp style used for Lithuania until at least December 1936. The Lithuanian headstamp “AD” can be found with type S bullets as late as lot 18 of 1938, while the “LD” headstamp is found as late as lot 11 of 1940.

Following the German Pattern, all three of these headstamps used a green primer seal for type s.S. ball, and a black primer seal for type S ball.

This information is from my catalog for my 7.9 collection, when I still had it, and the entries were limited only to those in my own collection.

John Moss

thanks John…and thanks to all others…paul