7.92 Mauser beobachtung


#1

a 7.92 Mauser beobachtung ctge with a copper washed steel case
all black primer
hstp : P207 Xm1 47 40

Good or fake ?

Thanks
JP


#2

JP,

Probably fake.
P207 never loaded B-Patr.
Until today only P413 loaded a B-Patr. in a copper washed case.

I think the P207 was originally a lS cartridge with a primer 30.

451kr.


#3

[quote=“451kr”]JP,

Probably fake.
P207 never loaded B-Patr.
Until today only P413 loaded a B-Patr. in a copper washed case.

I think the P207 was originally a lS cartridge with a primer 30.

451kr.[/quote]

thank you, I will wait more pictures from the guy who has them
jp


#4

here is what the guy told me by phone :
(the guy had no camera when he saw them and noted more or less on the back of a paper what he saw. Therefore it is perhaps not accurate)

the box label has 3 colors
top : black with 15 B Patronen written on it
bottom : white (left) blue (center) white (right)
and it is written :

P207 L 40
nz.gew.br;p; (2-2 045)
patrh.s.(St.) P207 L 40
Gesch dbf 5 L 40
Zdh.88: faa 174 L 40

He took apart one of the ctges and it was a beobachtung.

But perhaps the label is not the one matching the ctge he has.

What do you think?
Thanks
JP


#5

JP,

On the moment there are a lot of reproduction boxes for sale on the French market
with the strangest loadings.
Without a picture you cant tell of its a original
loading or not.

451kr.


#6

[quote=“jeanpierre”]here is what the guy told me by phone :
(the guy had no camera when he saw them and noted more or less on the back of a paper what he saw. Therefore it is perhaps not accurate)

the box label has 3 colors
top : black with 15 B Patronen written on it
bottom : white (left) blue (center) white (right)
and it is written :

P207 L 40
nz.gew.br;p; (2-2 045)
patrh.s.(St.) P207 L 40
Gesch dbf 5 L 40
Zdh.88: faa 174 L 40

He took apart one of the ctges and it was a beobachtung.

But perhaps the label is not the one matching the ctge he has.

What do you think?
Thanks
JP[/quote]

JP, By reading what is written here, the box label is also a fake.

The code “dbf” was used by an electronic company in Hamburg.

Btw. Were is the lot number.

Rgds


#7

Use a BLACK LIGHT on the label and see if it is Phosphorescent.

Joe


#8

[quote=“dutch”]JP, By reading what is written here, the box label is also a fake.

The code “dbf” was used by an electronic company in Hamburg.
[/quote]

Dutch,

i know you are mostly correct, but in the 2 lists of WaA/Mfg markings i have (including Claus Espeholt’s list), dbf was assigned to “Gustloff-Werke, Waffenwerk Suhl, Suhl, Thüringen” with WaA148

Can you please tell me where you found the dbf code linked to that electronic company ?

Thanks.


#9

[quote=“orpheus72”][quote=“dutch”]JP, By reading what is written here, the box label is also a fake.

The code “dbf” was used by an electronic company in Hamburg.
[/quote]

Dutch,

i know you are mostly correct, but in the 2 lists of WaA/Mfg markings i have (including Claus Espeholt’s list), dbf was assigned to “Gustloff-Werke, Waffenwerk Suhl, Suhl, Thüringen” with WaA148

Can you please tell me where you found the dbf code linked to that electronic company ?

Thanks.[/quote]

dbf;= Hoppmann und Mulsow, Elektro-technische Specialfabrik,
Hamburg 19, Sillemstrasse 76

From;

Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen für Waffen, Munition und Gerät.
Oberkommando des Heeres 1944.

Rgds
Dutch

adding
Just looked at Claus his WaA list.

He mentioned “dfb” as Gustloff Werke not “dbf”


#10

Dutch,

Thanks !

in Claus’ WaA list he metions ‘dfb’ as Gustloff Werke, just like you say, but he also has ‘dbf’ as code for WaA148 (also described as Gustloff Werke)…Guess that second one must be a typo.

I’ll alter that in my lists.


#11

I received the pictures


#12

By seeing the pictures I must say; I was impressed.
Not by the B rounds with the CWS case, but by the work to make them look original.

Please give attention;

The black bar on the label is too small

The cartridge lot is 47 (not the case lot) means; they must have made 46 lots before this one.

The writing of; Patrh. is completely wrong for P207. On the box is written Patrh. S (St).
P207 always wrote Patrh. S (Stahl) on the label. Also with the later “bne” code they did not change it.

On the label is written Zdh.88. The cartridge showed, the head stamp has a primer 30 black.
The characters (linotype) are not correct for P207. as example Zdh.

Do you notice that the 300er case has a 15 round label?
B. Bullets were not crimped so heavenly is shown in the pictures.

Anyway, I don’t like this round.

Rgds
Dutch


#13

JP,

I totally agree with Dutch that these boxes and cartridges are fake.

451kr.


#14

I find it hard to believe that of all factories Polte should be ignorant of the rules for B-Patrone labels. Another detail is the “P” in a larger font than the rest of the cartridge lot line. Never seen that before.

I think it should be noted that Prvi Patrizan as late as 2005 manufactured 7.9 mm ball bullets of 16.2 g that have the same length as B projectiles. Two or three years ago I bought 1000 of them. With a little blackening a faker could easily make them appear as B projectiles.

Edit: Sorry, P 207 is of course not Polte but Metallwerk Odertal. I got confused by the larger P. But, this factory being in the business since 1935 as far as I can tell, the same reasoning applies: they should know the correct setup of a B-Patrone label.


#15

Dutch, just to clarify a detail: How far from the labelled cartridge lot number can a collector accept case lot numbers?* This just as a rule of thumb. I have boxes whose contents are case lot wise 3-4 lot numbers away from the labelled number. My german 7,9 collection is made up of cartridges and boxes left behind after the occupation 1940 - 1945 and almost all are opened before I got my hands on them, so I have no way of telling if anybody has messed with them.

  • Except for the obvious, where cases rejected for loading ‘combat’ ammo were used for blanks.

Soren


#16

GREAT information gentlemen.


#17

My understanding of Dutch’s remark is that more than forty B Patrone lots in one year is much too high.
(We are talking 1940 when Luftwaffe used brass cases only and the only army units having B cartridges in their tables of equipment were mountain troops.)


#18

Soren,

A case lot number is something different as a cartridge lot number.
Over a period of time a case lot number went from 100 000 to over 3 million cases. In 1943 they stopped writing the case lot on the label. You can find several lots in a box.
The amount of cartridge in a ball lot number were more than a specialised round like the B. or SmK-H. For small orders they took parts of a case lot.

I can not tell you how many cartridges were in a B lot. I hope to make it clear with this P154 label showing cartridge lot 234 with case lot 8 of 1940. These cartridge lots must be small.

JPeelen, I am sorry if I confused you.
The meaning was if cartridge lot 47 exist, more CWS B cartridges of this company must be known.


#19

Dutch, thanks for putting my wrong assumption on the right track.


#20

First, I will admit that I should stay out of this discussion since most of you know that I know VERY LITTLE about 7.9.

Second, I agree that this is almost certainly a fake box. I believe that it would be extremely unlikely, that both the case lot number of 47 and the production lot number of 47 should match. Sure looks like the person who put this together didn’t realize these two lot numbers had no relationship with each other except they both began with “1” in 1940.

Dutch, Thanks for the new information. I didn’t realize that the various bullet loads in 7.9 had a separate set of lot numbers. I haven’t noticed this on 9mm boxes where mE and SE loads both seem to be part of the same set of cartridge lots. Having said this, they may well be in different cartridge lot series and I have never noticed because I never looked!!!

The real reason I joined the thread is that, if the noted errors in letter size and alignment on the P207 B-Partonen box are enough to render the label fake, then the bne label Dutch posted as an example is also a fake. the date in the cartridge lot has “19” in a larger and bolder type than the “44”. In addition the “b” in “bne” does not line up. There are other cases of similar problems on this label with both alignment and type size. In spite of these, this “bne” label looks legit to me.

Is the short black strip on the top of the label a problem? Clearly it is not the same as other B labels by other companies, but I could fill pages of German P08 labels from this period with errors that are just as significant and some very much more significant. Inconsistency between companies was relatively common. There is even a 50rd box, probably RWS commercial from the 1930, that a collector was kind enough to send a photo of where PARABELLUM was misspelled! I think we do our avocation a disservice is we condemn items as fakes with such arguments.

We all know that the data is almost always missing to definitively judge an item fake. I remember a case a decade ago where the a person deeply involved in the development and production of a very desirable item, judged an example pictured in the IAA Journal to be a fake. As it turns out, it was legit and documented in an official report as legit.

I know of two separate cases where extremely rare 9mms where only two or three examples were known were destroyed or thrown away because they were judged as fakes (i.e. not legitimate loads). I am sensitive to this because about 25 years ago I, based on what a well respected authority told me, told a relatively new collector that an item he was quite proud of was actually a relatively modern reload. A few years later, I had the “pleasure” of explaining to him how stupid my information to him actually was. That one case opened my mind quite a bit.

In this case, it would be interesting to pull one of these bullets and see if it is a B!

If you think I am off track, feel free to say so. My wife will be the first to tell you that I am not always right.

Thanks to all of those who contributed to this thread. Very interesting, even to a 9mm guy!

Cheers,
Lew