7.92 Mauser?


#1

Does anyone know what is this round ?
No cap (berdan type), no H/S and aluminium base; magnetic bullet 12.8g.
Plastic is screwed into the base.

Thanks
Philippe


#2

Philippe, it’s a wonderful French composite case experimental. A lot of testing was done during 1943-44 with cellulose acetate and nylon case bodies.


#3

I would say it is not a French experimental ctge but rather a German experimental ctge developped in france for the germans buy a french occupied company during wwii
this is one of the six different cases type and third base type (it is the last one designed, the one before being all steel, and the first ones being cut brass, and steel bases from different origin ctges)
Note the bullet has no crimp cannelure
jp


#4

These cases showed up about 20 years ago. They all came from one French source.
It was told they were packed in a 1944 French newspaper.

I will try to explain why I don’t like this cartridge.

As far I know they never found a drawing of it.

Under pressure from the Luftwaffe all experiments with aluminum 7,9 cases were stopped. They needed it for air plains. It was not so easy these days to get aluminum. All material was under state control.

The bullet is an other story.
I know, some experiments were made the first time with other calibers.
For example, cases with electric primers and caseles cartridges.

The bullet of the round looks a little like the first sS bullets from 1914.

I would appreciate it if fellow collectors change my opinion about this round.

Rgds
Dutch


#5

[quote=“dutch”]These cases showed up about 20 years ago. They all came from one French source.

[color=#0000FF]Right. They all come from me or from my friend Barlerin (same thing for the little story about the 303 ctges “rafale” shows in another post : armor peircing, tracers, early tracer, spg, buckingham inciediary and so on.)
It was in 1890 If i remember well.[/color]

It was told they were packed in a 1944 French newspaper.
[color=#0000FF]I found them at the flea market in a shoes box.
Some of these cases were wrapped in “movies syndicate enrollement form”
(not newspapers)
On some papers ther were some dates (ranging from november 1943 to january 1944) and results of trials (velocity, pressure, temperature, results about the length after shhoting, trials of “new material” , aso)

Some of the tubes and bases were even for crusher ctges. [/color]

[color=#4000FF]I gave samples to Peter Petrusic who send them to a factory to test the composition.
Some of them were cellulose acetate (green cases) , other nylon (amber ones) and so on.
(I still have the chemical test report but it is heavy and in german, therefore no time to go back into it and check the other composition).
Both materials were used at this time in movies industries, therefore the correlation with a company working for it because of the papers found.[/color][color=#0000FF]
[color=#0000FF]The velocity in some trials was about 740 m/s for a powder charge of 2,65 g.[/color]End of the first part of the story.[/color]

I will try to explain why I don’t like this cartridge

[color=#0000FF]Despite the fact you are a big 7.92 collector, I doubt you know all the 7.92 ctges, specially the ones designed in France either by Manurhin or by SFM for example.
And this is not directed specially to you, but even to any french collector, because except 2 guys (one been died, it was my friend Jacques Barlerin, with who I shared these ctges, the other one still well alive and giving[/color] [color=#0000FF]me all the documents I used to post on this forum, like for example 7.5 french caseless ctges from before 1940), noone has spent more than one day per year in the french archives. I have seen very strange ctges i can assure you[/color]
[color=#0000FF]And it is surely not difficult to find more interesting ctges of different caliberss because they are tons of documents, including Mauser archives, other German archives and so on
Jacques unfortunately died before he searched all and furthermore he was only interested by french ctges[/color]

As far I know they never found a drawing of it.

[color=#0000FF]Yes and no.
No drawing for the moment at my knowledge.
But my friend Barlerin found 10 years after the discovery of these ctges the official reports of the tests in the Military archives, name of company who made them and so on.

For the little story exactly the same ctges were made in 8 Lebel, a few years before (bill woodin has such a ctge coming from france (not from me) from a long time ago.

Jacques asked me if I was interested, i said just give me a resume.

Here is what I know:
In 1939 1940 the LCFA (ccentral laboratoy of armement manufacturing) wanted to have composite ctges (plastic cases and brass bases) and asked to the company Alsthom (which surely subcontracted them) to make the cases and deliver the to Services des Recherches Scientifiques et Techniques.
Even 7.5 mas ctges were made.
When the german came they were very interested and used the technology and the faciity.[/color]
[color=#0000FF]End of the second part of the story[/color].

[color=#0000FF]Jacques died and a guy heritated of all his papers.
In these papers you have all the informations and perhaps even the drawings of the ctges.
Because jacques had a lot of documents (he was not lazy and used to spend about two full weeks per year at the Chatelleraux archives) it will perhaps take some time for the guy to show up these documents.[/color]

[color=#0000FF]End of the story[/color]
Under pressure from the Luftwaffe all experiments with aluminum 7,9 cases were stopped. They needed it for air plains. It was not so easy these days to get aluminum. All material was under state control.

The bullet is an other story.
I know, some experiments were made the first time with other calibers.
For example, cases with electric primers and caseles cartridges.

The bullet of the round looks a little like the first sS bullets from 1914.
[color=#0000FF]Or it looks like the belgian 7.92 bullet which has no cannelure people told me.
Correct or not ?[/color]I would appreciate it if fellow collectors change my opinion about this round.

Rgds
Dutch[/quote]


#6

Jeanpierre

First of all I would like to thank you for the time you took to give this answer.

Only a few (occupied) French factories worked for the Germans (Small caliber ammo).

TE = Cartoucherie de Toulouse (German code “pas”)
TS = Atalier de Constuction de Tarbes (German code “oyj”)
ATS = Atlier de Constuction de Tarbes (German code “oyj”)
VE = Cartucherie de Valence

The 8mm Lebel M92 is known, the highest head stamp I know of is 1 1940 made by EHC.
Don’t think the Germans made it during WW2.

One of these factories must be involved.

The mysteries part for me is that there is absolutely nothing known Germany. Even the drawing from the 8mm Lebel cartridge was made by HAK in Hamburg. If you find a drawing, I would love to see it.

J.P., I do not think it is a Belgian bullet. The first one is Belgium origin, the other one made under German occupation. Both have a different bullet.


Rgds
Dutch


#7

"Only a few (occupied) French factories worked for the Germans (Small caliber ammo).

TE = Cartoucherie de Toulouse (German code “pas”)
TS = Atalier de Constuction de Tarbes (German code “oyj”)
ATS = Atlier de Constuction de Tarbes (German code “oyj”)
VE = Cartucherie de Valence "

These kinds of comments are not real information. They are opinions. France was the largest producer of war materiel goods for Germany outside of the Reich during the WW2 era according to US and British intelligence reports. There is no COMPLETE records of war production in France for several reasons. One BIG reason is that many companies did not want it known that they were producing for Germany ; you know why.

Consequently much of this information has been compromised and may never be known.

There is more unknown about the subject than is known. That is my OPINION. Prove me wrong.

Between Woodin Lab and CSA there is over 100 years of collecting experience and study. Given this, nearly every week something new and previously unknown or misunderstood comes to light.

There is no complete record of German or French ordnance production. The record of experimental ammunition is even less complete.

My experience is that the people with the most experience say " I don’t know " far more than others.

Concerning these shells ; they are very interesting and have a good story as well for support. I always revert to my motto " If the king like it, I like it " .

He likes these.

In addition small arms research and experimentation is not done only by firms known to make small arms ammo.

Why is the record so incomplete ?

Simplest reason ; historians don’t care. We care because we collect and study this stuff. Intel assets care at the time ONLY. The kind of detail which we like is of so little importance to historians in general that there are only a couple of thousand folks of record in this field in all of the clubs while there are MILLIONS of folks in the gun clubs. The largest print run of an ammunition book is NOTHING in the book market. Ian Hogg’s best full color ammo book printed 5000 copies. The US distributor offered me the last 2000 at $1 each ( I should have bought) . I passed and they were sold for scrap paper !

Further; much of this info. was classified by factory or government or both and that has all of its own problems of coming to light. Much has not been and may never been declassified. Declassification is a labor intensive job; papers,papers,papers. Governments and businesses don’t like spending the money.

And; information is corrupted for personal and political reasons.

We are a small and shrinking band of brothers .

The only thing the world at large cares about ammunition is if it goes off when the trigger is pulled.


#8

John, You have a good point. From my experience in the military and with industry on development programs, neither governments nor industry keep information, particularly information before it was easy to create it or convert it to digital. Old records in the government and industry and the government were usually destroyed without any kind of review. A great deal of classified information is destroyed before it is ever elegible for declassification because it is no longer useful to the effort and the requirements to protect and inventory it take a lot of effort and space so the policy is to destroy it. About the only thing that gets preserved in most development organizations I have been in are the small bits that get sent to the base/unit historian and those things preserved for legal purposes. Drawings and specifications of material that is obsolete has no reason to be preserved and went to the dump or later recycling.

I’m told by a good friend of John Hintlian that when he moved he filled a dumpster with papers he had liberated from the trash at the ammo companies he had worked for. This person told me he drove over to see John and he, John was moving paper by the wheelbarrow full out to the dumpster. As they talked, this guy saw a rolled up drawing standing in the corner of a box John was throwing away and pulled it out. It was an original Winchester drawing of the 45ACP cartridge dating from about the time of its introduction. This guy still had the drawing about three years ago when he showed it to me and told me the story. John had nothing else to do with the huge quantity of paper he had accumulated.

Over the years, John had given me specimens-particularly old drawsets that were being thrown away and some documents. I often wonder what priceless ammo documentation went to the landfill. As a collector community we have done a terrible job of preserving the data put together by those who have proceeded us, much less make it available to the community at large.

I was in communication with Jacques Barlerin on some research when he stopped replying to my emails and then Phillippe told me he had died. A great loss, but if all his documents and files he put together are destroyed, or locked away where they are not available to collectors, than it is another great loss to collectors and a massive disrespect to a fine man who spend so much time and effort putting together the information.

Lew


#9

[quote=“dutch”]Jeanpierre

First of all I would like to thank you for the time you took to give this answer.

Only a few (occupied) French factories worked for the Germans (Small caliber ammo).

TE = Cartoucherie de Toulouse (German code “pas”)
TS = Atalier de Constuction de Tarbes (German code “oyj”)
ATS = Atlier de Constuction de Tarbes (German code “oyj”)
VE = Cartucherie de Valence

[color=#0000FF]Hello!
You are talking about government owned factories.
You must add also the private companies;
SFM for exemple. they made ctges and also detonnators and fuzes
A lot of private companies (if not all ) wer working for the germans
In all the domains: air planes, ammunition cars and so on
I don’t know the story of Alsthom during the war[/color]

The 8mm Lebel M92 is known, the highest head stamp I know of is 1 1940 made by EHC.
Don’t think the Germans made it during WW2.

[color=#0000FF]I am not talking about the 8 Lebel for revolver, but for the rifle
here is a drawing of this ctge[/color]

One of these factories must be involved.

The mysteries part for me is that there is absolutely nothing known Germany. Even the drawing from the 8mm Lebel cartridge was made by HAK in Hamburg. If you find a drawing, I would love to see it.

J.P., I do not think it is a Belgian bullet. The first one is Belgium origin, the other one made under German occupation. Both have a different bullet.

If you are sure it is not belgian, whih country could it be?
If you find nothing I will take a look in my files of unknown bullets
Perhaps it is french after all !!

Rgds
Dutch[/quote]


#10

[quote=“Lew”]John, You have a good point. From my experience in the military and with industry on development programs, neither governments nor industry keep information, particularly information before it was easy to create it or convert it to digital. Old records in the government and industry and the government were usually destroyed without any kind of review. A great deal of classified information is destroyed before it is ever elegible for declassification because it is no longer useful to the effort and the requirements to protect and inventory it take a lot of effort and space so the policy is to destroy it. About the only thing that gets preserved in most development organizations I have been in are the small bits that get sent to the base/unit historian and those things preserved for legal purposes. Drawings and specifications of material that is obsolete has no reason to be preserved and went to the dump or later recycling.

I’m told by a good friend of John Hintlian that when he moved he filled a dumpster with papers he had liberated from the trash at the ammo companies he had worked for. This person told me he drove over to see John and he, John was moving paper by the wheelbarrow full out to the dumpster. As they talked, this guy saw a rolled up drawing standing in the corner of a box John was throwing away and pulled it out. It was an original Winchester drawing of the 45ACP cartridge dating from about the time of its introduction. This guy still had the drawing about three years ago when he showed it to me and told me the story. John had nothing else to do with the huge quantity of paper he had accumulated.

Over the years, John had given me specimens-particularly old drawsets that were being thrown away and some documents. I often wonder what priceless ammo documentation went to the landfill. As a collector community we have done a terrible job of preserving the data put together by those who have proceeded us, much less make it available to the community at large.

I was in communication with Jacques Barlerin on some research when he stopped replying to my emails and then Phillippe told me he had died. A great loss, but if all his documents and files he put together are destroyed, or locked away where they are not available to collectors, than it is another great loss to collectors and a massive disrespect to a fine man who spend so much time and effort putting together the information.

Lew[/quote]

John and I were lodge brothers and he was a treasure to the field. He told me that one of his first jobs was clearing all of the paper out of the attic because they were afraid of fire and sabotage during the war. He “rescued” as much as he could. Much was destroyed and will never been known.