7.92 mm ID


#1

I recently bought the cartridges shown in the attached pictures and have some questions. From L to R they are:

I think this round is an Smk. It has a pink annulus, is this Arctic Primed? And if so can anyone tell me more about its background ie were they trials only or widely issued?

The second round has a hollow nose. A close up of this is attached. I initially thought this was a reload but on closer inspection it looks like an original crimp (although I am no expert on such matters) I also thought it might be a ball round with the nose sawn off and a hole drilled in it, but if that is the case it has been very well done. What is it?

The third round is, I think, shown at fig 5 of page 241 of Die Militarpatronen 7.9 by Brandt, Hamann and Dr Windisch. It is listed as a Stahlgeschoss can anyone tell me anymore about it?

The fourth round is shown at fig 1 page 248 of the same book and is listed as a Geschoss mit Einschunurung. Can anyone tell me anymore about this one.

I have never seen any 7.92 with light blue paint as shown in the last pic. Is it a fake? Any information gratefully received.

Thanks in advance

Ian

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#2

Your entry is hard to read because it is wider than the screen and you have to keep scrolling over. However, I’ll take a stab at this.

In my opinion, first round on the left is simply a standard SmK AP round. The second round is a standard type s.S. ball round with the point of the bullet clipped off. You see this commonly, done by people trying to make a hunting round out of it. A very poor practice due to the danger of having a cored shoot-through and leaving a jacket stuck in the barrel. I have no idea what the thrid round is. I would think it a fake, except it is from a factory that did a lot of experimenting, and the primer appears to be uncrimped, which often denotes an experimental loading, although not always. Sadly, onl my screen, I cannot read the lot number and date on the headstamp - it is too washed out. Your fourth round should be a Gaspolstergeschoss Patrone (Gas Cushion bulleted cartridge). I can read the lot on that, either. It is important, for as far as I know, all known legitimate ones are edq St+34 44. Still, the primer appears to be uncrimped - again, hard to tell in that photo - which would be correct. The last one appears to be a standard Model 1888 ball cartridge with nonsensical colored markings added by someone with more time on his hands than he needs. Just my opinion on that one.

The picture of the headstamps is not a good one on my screen. If it turns out that cartridges 3 and 4 have primer crimps, then I would say the chances are good that they are fakes. If they don’t, they may be legitimate, and if the lot number is 34 of 44, they are likely legitimate. I have three variations of cartridge in that one lot number, all with no primer crimps, Gaspolster, SmE late-type zinc-coated bullet with very dark finish, and SmE late-type zinc-coated bullet with what appears to be a normal, production bullet. The Gaspolster is not hard to fake. Some loose bullets have been found - I have one - and it shouldn’t be hard for someone with a good lathe to cut the groove in the bullet. Pulling it would tell the story if you know what the rest of the bullet looks like, but then, if I thought a gaspolster round was legit, I wouldn’t disturb the crimp and chance other damage by pulling the bullet.

Just my thoughts on these. I could have done better with a better view of the bases, I think.


#3

I can read them. The headstamps on both #s 3 and 4 are “edq St+ 4 44”, and both primers appear to be uncrimped.


#4

John,

I had the same problem the first time I looked at this post…but it seems fine now.

Steve


#5

Gentlemen, just click on the image.


#6

The uncrimped primer is important. I, for one, am not willing to say if the “edq” rounds are correct or not. The uncrimped primer speaks in their favor, but from what I have seen of the fairly rare gaspolster cartridges and what I believe are concurrent experiments using the same lot and dated cases, the lot number speaks against them. It will take someone more knowledgeable than I to identify whether or not they are fakes.

Dutch?


#7

I agree with John,

The first one is a SmK with a primer 43 red.
The second one is a so called


#8

When ever I see the egg shell blue I think of all the “Russian” dummies in varied calibers that have shown up at SLICS the last couple of years


#9

Dutch,
The 2nd round - how is that identified as an ‘Anshuss patrone’ and not just a steel cased s.S. Patr?


#10

Jim,

In 1939 the Germans introduced the SmE (Spitz mit Eisen).

After 1942 only SmE were loaded. Once a wile you see some cartridges with an sS bullet. They still had some sS bullets on Stock.

Anyway, the Beschuss (proof) and Anschuss were only used inside factories. They could easy recycle the lead from the fired bullets. In the field, the bullet with the valuable lead was gone.

Dutch


#11

Dutch, thank you and I think I now understand! So if I have some 1943-dated rounds with a green primer annulus and s.S. bullets these would be Anschuss loads?
Jim


#12

Probably,

Also the 1942 loads if


#13

Dutch - How many case-lot numbers are known on Gaspolster rounds? I couldn’t even find “34” on the copy of the big 7.9 lot number list that I have. It is the only lot number I have seen before on a Gaspolster - that is why the one in the picture concerns me, in light of the tampering with a couple of other of the rounds.

Perhaps the gaspolster rounds are not as rare as I thought they were, if they appear in different case lots.

Any reason they are not on the headstamp list, or did I just miss them, with my “old man” eyesight?


#14

Gents

Thanks for all your replies, particularly your comment on uncrimped primers John which is new to me. The first round definitely has a very pink primer, I will try and get a better picture in daylight tomorrow.

Sorry about the format of the first post, computers hate me!

Thanks

Ian


#15

Ian,

Herewith a picture of the same cartridge and boxlabel .
Mention Zdh 43.

451kr.


#16

I plead old age…but the egg shell blue rounds I have (and others from SLICS the last couple of years, from very reputable sources)

(which I thought looked a lot like the color of your round) and I said in my prior comment were


#17

Pepper

The blue painted round came from a seller at the ECRA show at Bisely on Saturday. He was mainly selling British proof ammunition. I shall make some enquires to see if I can find out more about where the blue round came from.

Thanks

Ian


#18

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Dutch - How many case-lot numbers are known on Gaspolster rounds? I couldn’t even find “34” on the copy of the big 7.9 lot number list that I have. It is the only lot number I have seen before on a Gaspolster - that is why the one in the picture concerns me, in light of the tampering with a couple of other of the rounds.

Perhaps the gaspolster rounds are not as rare as I thought they were, if they appear in different case lots.

Any reason they are not on the headstamp list, or did I just miss them, with my “old man” eyesight?[/quote]

John,

The Gaspolster is not only with “edq” but also with “cg” head stamp known.

Kind regards,
Dutch


#19

Dutch,

Can you tell us the lot numbers that the Gas Polster cartridge is found in? Or, would you rather not. If not, I understand why.


#20

[quote=“Pepper”]I plead old age…but the egg shell blue rounds I have (and others from SLICS the last couple of years, from very reputable sources)

(which I thought looked a lot like the color of your round) and I said in my prior comment were