What does red tip signify on this bullet
7.92 Norwegian MG
Red tip, cncs
What does red tip signify on this bullet
the designation of this cartridges isn’t 7,92x61???
7,92x57 is lett/light, 7,92x61 is tung/heavy. 7,92x61 tung has a rebated rim. The red color indicates tracer.
Cartridge is 7.92 x 61
Perhaps a funny question,
In 1943 Norway was occupied by the Germans.
For who was this RA head stamp cartridge made for.
I can’t think of any other than the Armee Norwegen (1940-44). Also, a third part of the Colt machine guns were manufactured for this cartridge under German control.
7,9x57 1941 - 1948, yes, but I also have 1934 with stake crimped bullet and a 1937 with heavy neck crimp.
@ fede, As far I know there was no Norwegian army.
Norway was occupied between 1940 and 1945.
I know, but the Armee Norwegen from 1940-44 is not the Norwegian Army, it’s new designation for the German Armeegruppe XXI formed to invade this country.
So German Armeegruppe XXI was made up of whom? Norwegians?
Who did they make these 7,92x57 tracers for?
Two pictures taken in Norway in 1943 showing German soldiers with the Norwegian Colt Model 1929 (missing flash hider). Source: Bundesarchiv.
I think the gun may be fitted with a blank firing attachment, hence no flash hider. Jack
Norwegian and Polish Browning design Guns in 7,9x57 were also used by the Deutsche Reichsbahn for Anti-Aircraft defence on Trains on the Eastern Front. Photos from several DR historical collections show what are definitely “Browning” Watercooled Guns on such duties.
Also, the German troops shown with a Browning, are also armed with Danish M89 Krag Jorgensen Rifles ( Cal. 8x58R) Note the Barrel Jacket typical of the Danish rifle…the Norwegian Krag (M94) did not have a barrel Jacket.
If the Photo is from Norway, I would assume the Calibre of the gun is 7,9x61 ( and not 7,9x57—both calibres were used in Brownings) as this would be in keeping with the restricted use of 7,9x61 within its country of production…whilst 7,9x57 guns would have wider use throughout the Reich.
I would say that it is a second line or Training Unit, or Territorial Guard unit, as the Majority of first order German Troops in Norway were armed with Kar98k etc, as evidenced by the Enormous quantity of German equipment surrendered in 1945 and used by Norway through to the 1960s.
Also, a lot of RA produced 7,9x57 would have been directed to the Waffen SS on the Eastern Front ( Waffen SS did not get into the Wehrmacht supply chain until about 1942-3; before that they relied on “
Commercial Contracts” and “War Booty” 7,9 ammo.)
Again, Military History and Military Rifle Knowledge intersect and explains Cartridge History and use.
Doc - If you are referring to the picture of the two German soldiers
on this thread, that is not a Danish Krag nor does it have the full
barrel jacket of the Danish Rifle. That is a bayonet lug ending
just short of the muzzle on the underside of the barrel. The bit
of barrel evident in the picture, behind that lug, is quite slender.
That front end is typical of the Norwegian Krag rifle, arguably the
best Krag type ever made. Being a fan of 6.5 x 55 (for shooting,
not collecting) I wish I had one to go with my three Swedish ones,
Model 94, 96, and the shorter WWII version (96/38?) the model
designation not clear in my mind right now.
Your comment about history and military arms in regard to cartridge
collecting is spot on! You cannot divorce cartridges from the guns
that shot them and the historical reasons of why they were made.
Joe, I believe the Deutsche Armeegruppe XXI, occupiers of Norway,
were Germans for the most part. I guess you can’t know if it was 100%
so, as their were Austrian, Latvian, Lithuanian and other volunteers in the
Wermacht, but I don’t believe gruppe XXI was a totally Norwegian volunteer
unit. There was a Norwegian-manned SS group, but my impression is that
it was fairly small and not too much trusted by the Germans. Could be
wrong - it has been a long, long time since I studied this stuff.
Not sure how relevant it is or if it helps, but here is a photo from Morten Stoen’s seminar presentation from SLICS with a frame that I believe shows a German production 7.92x61:
The two Norwegian 7.92x61 cartridges that Morten shows here are the rarest known versions. There are 2-3 known examples of each. The Wehrmacht was trying to convert production from brass to steel at Raufoss, but never succeeded. The cg-coded steel case shown here might have been made to show the Norwegians how steel cases were made. Steel cases in 6.5x55mm were made by Raufoss in 1945, but loaded up after the war and issued to the Norwegian Home Guard. The blank shown here is speculated to be a reloaded case from the first 7.92x61 experiments around 1936. The headstamp is not typical Raufoss, and an investigation is going on to perhaps determine something of great interest to Norwegian cartridge historians.
I am a little confused. You wrote
Norwegian and Polish Browning design Guns in 7,9x57 were also used by the Deutsche Reichsbahn for Anti-Aircraft defence on Trains on the Eastern Front.
Well to my information the “Reichsbahn” was a logistic company runs by the German state.
I have never heard that they had a Reichsbahn defence unit to protect trains against air raids.
They were only responsible for the traffic, not only militarily transports but also dirty transports of people to concentration camps.
Doc, witch source do you have that SS troops used Norwegian ammunition on the eastern front. They were fully equipped with Czech arms an ammunition they “found” earlier.
The cartridge shown by Morton on the slicks is very rare.
Would like to show the same on beside a 7,9 x 57 to compare.
As shown by different members before, Raufoss made ammunition true WW2.
Why did they not become a German code?
Eddit, Press on the right bottom corner to see the head stamp.
This is perhaps only tangential to this thread, but I have seen a photo showing a Polish Browning 1917 set up in an AA position guarding a German coastal artillery position on one of the Channel Islands off the French coast. Jack