7,92 x 57 possibly Polish


#1

Completely NON magnetic. Everything looks brass. May have been cleaned with something that makes it look this way. Projectile is .320"

Joe





#2

Hi Joe, it was made by Manfred Weiss in Budapest, Hungary, but in my opinion the bullet and primer sealant aren’t original to this round. A correct cartridge should have no sealant and a steel jacketed bullet secured by means of a strong segmented crimp. Regards, Fede.


#3

Fede - am not sure that this “W” round can’t be original. It is not like most of these I have seen, but an awful lot of these rounds were found among Spanish reloads of many, many different European headstamps, and they fit the description that you just gave. I could be completely wrong, but when I had my 7.9s, my round, which was found among the Spanish stuff, was as you described. I do agree that it is likely not Polish.


#4

John, you could be right about this round being a Spanish reload, as I’m aware of several types of bullets loaded in cases of various manufacturers having a very similar thick red primer sealant. Even if I haven’t noted a reload using a case with this particular headstamp, as you said, this is not unlikely because this cartridge was used in the Spanish Civil War.


#5

Fede,

May I ask why you feel sure on Manfred Weiss Patronenfabrik in Budapest? I had thought of the same and also W.R.A Co. along with Wollersdorf in Vienne, but have no prof. I mention Polish as I thought possibly it may be Wojskowska Wytwomia for the “w” in Wytwomia. The odd neck crimp on this one is all wrong for most manufacturers.

Below are others I feel strongly are Spanish civil war items. They are magnetic tinned projectiles with brass cases and primers. They also measure .321" - .320" projectile diameter. That is what most of my Polish S ball rounds from the same time period of the Spanish civil war measure. German / Austrian civil war headstamped 7,9 mostly measures .322" - .325". At least that’s what I find.




#6

Fede,

The crimp on this particular cartridge is a build up, not an impression. Sorry about the bad photography.

joe



#7

I am now thinking reload also, as I think they recut the rim to remove extractor / ejector marring’s. Then used some unconventional method of crimping the neck around the projectile.

Fede, You still fell strongly on Manfred Weiss in Budapest for the original case manufacturer?

Joe


#8

Joe, although I have not seen the box for this cartridges, a comparison between the “W” of this headstamp and those found in export 7x57 cartridges of pre-WWI manufacture is identical, and their box is labeled “Manfred Weiss Budapest”. Also, it can be compared with several 8x50R Mannlicher headstamps of confirmed Weiss manufacture. These were also used in the Spanish Civil War and cases usually found have dates between 1916 and 1921.

I don’t know when these 7.9 mm cartridges were made, but undoubtedly before 1925, which was when the factory at Csepel started using the “ÁH” monogram.


#9

Fede - Firstly, I agree with your assessment of the manufacturer of the “W” 7.9 x 57 mm rounds, for whatever that is worth.

I think you read my answer wrong, though. I was referring to the rounds with Grey-color bullet jackets, probably plain steel, and brass primers with no seals, as possible Spanish reloads from the Civil War in Spain in the late 1930s. I had a couple of very minor variations, both about the same overall characteristics, and while one was of unknown origin, the other was definitely a Spanish reload found among a group of identically-featured rounds but with headstamps from all over Europe (Including Poland, but also Germany, Greece, England, and I forget what all). It was NOT the one with reddish primer seal and brass-jacket bullet that I was referring to as the Spanish reload.

However, looking at the crimp in the picture of the latter round, it appears to have been a instance of the case mouth being pushed back in poor quality or poorly adjusted tooling. I have never seen a raised rim around the case mouth, where the crimp should be, like that one, but feel there are limited ways that could have caused it. The real technicians in our crowd will know better than I what those might be.

I had a whole separate section in the Spanish part of my 7.9 collection for known Spanish Civil War reloads. Some nice headstamps among them, including very early 1920s Polish ones. That may be why some think this was Polish. It would be a decent assumption in context if found in a group like the ones I found. I believe, though, as I said, that it is Hungarian.


#10

Fede, What you say sounds plausible to me for this “W” stamped 7,92x57 casing to be of “Manfred Weiss Budapest”, as far as who loaded or reloaded it??? Most likely some Spanish outfit. How about the steel jacketed tin plated rounds also pictured? What is your thoughts on those?

John, Thanks for your input, as it helps with “Manfred Weiss Budapest” as the initiator of the “W” stamped into the head. Not that I doubt Fede’s expertise. I also looked at these 5 steel jacketed tin plated rounds and get a sense of reload. They were in strippers at one time from evidence of parallel striped markings on the heads and the bases seem to have been re-sized. Some of the neck - shoulder have that distinctive tell tale line and the cases have a feed scratch line smoothed out by firing and re-sizing. My only problem is, no evidence of extractor / ejector.

I am lucky to have to known experts working on these rounds, thanks.

joe


#11

Joe, my impression is that the steel jacketed rounds are not reloads because I have seen several of these in mint condition with a strong segmented crimp in perfect shape, but I must admit the possibility that these were loaded by other than Weiss using new cases of their manufacture, maybe in Spain, as John suggest. I guess that until someone find an original box we must consider both possibilities.


#12

Fede,

Thanks.

Joe

Edit: I have just found one with a CNCS jacket and the primer pocket does not have the inner ring as the tinned ones. It is more like the first posting with the red annuls, but is one has no sealant… It also does mot have the shadow around the base like it was re-sized that the tinned ones have. All I am sure of, is the “W” was stamped by “Manfred Weiss Budapest”.


#13

Fede,

The crimp on this particular cartridge is a build up, not an impression. Sorry about the bad photography.

joe


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That raised burr round the case mouth looks like it was caused by trimming the case length with a blunt tool. Handloaders will be familiar with this feature but, hopefully, not left in this state.

gravelbelly


#14

Gravelbelly - Interesting about the probable case of the raised case mouth. I have handloaded for 52 years and have never seen anything like that. But then again, I use only high-quality tools, including my case trimmer. Occasionally there is a tiny bit of flash, taken of effortlessly with one little turn of a high quality and very sharp deburring tool, but nothing like that at all.

Not saying it doesn’t happen. Just remarking I have not seen it before, again with the caveat that I don’t use poor or dull tools for reloading.


#15

I measured the case length in conjunction with the others of the same headstamp and tinned projectiles. The Brass one is only a two thousands shorter on average. Also the fold-back or humped up crimp, whatever it may be is .030" wide. When I look at it with 10x magnification, it does not seem to be from some kind of blunt cutter, but possibly some type of rolling the metal back, opposed to cutting it off process…

I am familiar with reloading. I have reloaded dozens of calibers, hundreds of thousands of rounds by hand and trimmed in excess of 10,000 cases by hand. Blunt cutter?/ like John said, maybe something I have never seen or used also. I have only only 3 methods. Dillon auto trim, trim and file dies and collet/mandrel types.

gravelbelly, thanks for your thought, who knows, ,maybe dull cutter of sorts.

joe