7.92mm extractor grooves


#1

The pictures show 2 x 7.92mm cartridges. There is however a significant difference in the size of the extractor grooves. Is this a normal manufacturing tolerance or are they for different weapons?


#2

Would it be possible for you to show or spell out the headstamps? Might help in answering your question.


#3

I was wondering if there was an relationship to this similar round with a ‘s’ pointed bullet with a Polte stamp?



#4

The extractor groove is non critical, as long as there is a groove there in the right place for the extractor to hook onto it doesn’t really matter. Your example is quite extreme though.


#5

I can’t answer specifically regarding the 8X57. However, it is not at all unusual for there to be significant differences seen in the extractor groove profiles, especially between manufacturers in different countries. I first noticed this several years ago when I was testing a large variety of .380 cartridges from all over the world.

At least for US manufactured commercial ammunition, there are established SAAMI tolerance standards for such things. Unfortunately, SAAMI standards are not observed worldwide.

Just for the record, the SAAMI tolerance standards shown for the 8X57 extractor groove are:

Groove angle = 30 to 36 degrees (from the cartridge centerline)
The small cylindrical section below the angled surface is 0.033"-0.043" long with a diameter of 0.389"-0.409"


#6

The dimensions of the groove can be a problem with the fit in a charger. Some 7x57mm cases have a narrow groove which jams in some chargers.


#7

Phil

The round with the large groove has no headstamp. The other is D.M. 9 95
I think the unheadstamped round is one of those supplied to the Ulster Volunteer Force at the same time as a shipment of Steyr rifles.

Buster


#8

Buster – I also have a cartridge with the same, wide groove.

In Daniel Kent’s book “German 7,9 mm Military Ammunition” on page XIV there is a drawing for this cartridge which is attributed to the Ulster Rebellion. My notes say that they were Belgian made but don’t indicate from where I got that information so that may be in error.



#9

I need to read up in my local history, I must have a look in some of the local museums to see if there are any examples. I have attached 2 extracts from Wiki-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howth_gun-running

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larne_gun_running

Daniel Kent’s sketch notes ‘Sinn Feiners’ troops, however surely this would be UVF?

The first one seems to indicate that the Irish Nationalists (Sinn Feiners) recieved 11mm Mausers, Where the UVF managed to recieve 11,000 Mannlicher rifles, 9,000 ex-German army Mausers & 4,600 Italian Vetterli-Vitali rifles.

Surely this round could be one of the ex-german Mausers for the UVF? Both seemed to be supplied by Benny Spiro.

Does Daniel Kent’s book mention anything about pointed bullets?

Regards
Michael


#10

This is my charger of 5, supposedly part of the Irish consignment . It’s a nice story, I’d like to believe it, but …

Happy collecting, Peter


#11

For those that don’t understand the differences. The UVF are loyalist (Protestant) the Sinn Fein are the IRA (Catholic) Opposing groups on opposite sides if the divide. Both are terrorists, run along mafia lines, protection money etc and everything that goes with it.

The use of German supplied rifles and ammo by the nationists is quite plausible at the time of the rebellion in 1916-7 because they were fighting the British Army and the Rebellion diverted British troops from the trenches to deal with it. Germany would have viewed the rebellion favourably. Probably hoping it would escalate.


#12

I’ve always understood that these 8mm Mauser cartridges were made by Spandau and were specifically unmarked for this clandestine contract but again I have no evidence to support this. All those I’ve seen - and I saw a lot of them when I was in Northern Ireland - have a distinctive golden yellow colour and I wonder if this provides any clue as to the manufacturer.

I’ve also got an unmarked Italian Vetterli round which came from Northern Ireland and I’d guess is from the Larne shipment;

I know we’re way off track as regards Buster’s original post on 7.9mm extractor grooves but does anybody have any suggestions for the headstamps found on the 11mm M1871 and 8mm Mannlicher rounds that were also involved?


#13

[quote=“VinceGreen”]For those that don’t understand the differences. The UVF are loyalist (Protestant) the Sinn Fein are the IRA (Catholic) Opposing groups on opposite sides if the divide. Both are terrorists, run along mafia lines, protection money etc and everything that goes with it.

The use of German supplied rifles and ammo by the nationists is quite plausible at the time of the rebellion in 1916-7 because they were fighting the British Army and the Rebellion diverted British troops from the trenches to deal with it. Germany would have viewed the rebellion favourably. Probably hoping it would escalate.[/quote]

One should be careful not to confuse the terrorist UVF of the last thirty years with the Ulster Volunteer Force formed in 1913 from the Ulster Volunteers. The WWI UVF was a much more respectable organisation supported by the British Conservative Party, despite it threatening rebellion against the partition of Ireland. The Vetterlis were smuggled to Ireland on the SS Clyde Valley (re-named the MountjoyII for the occassion), not the Larne.

In 1914 they passed their Vetterli rifles to the British government as a gesture of loyalty, and these were used by various militia units, including the Jersey Militia in the Channel Islands. The Vetterlis were cut down to SMLE length in an attempt to make them more compatible.

Jim - as far as I know, the Mannlicher rounds were also unheadstamped like the others.

Regards
TonyE


#14

I think there is some confusiuon here…the Rifles acquired by the UVF in 1911-12 or so, were M1904 Turnbolt Mannlichers (OEWG Steyr) in 7,9 J calibre, the Vetterli rifles , and the M1871 Mausers ( 11mm)–I have Two of the M1904s, and a M1871, this latter with the UVF " Open Hand" stamp on the woodwork.

The “Mannlichers” were not “8mm” ( such a description would indicate 8x50R, and Straight Pull) but 7,9x57 Infanterie Patrone '88, the same cartridge and clip as for the Kommission '88 rifle in German Service.

As to the maker of the un-H/S ammo in all three calibres, I have no idea as to who supplied it. The original Order by the UVF was well prior to WW I, so it could have been mediated by the German Dealer/Wholesaler via any number of Commercial makers; As ammo was supplied by the Wholesalers ( who had all these particular Rifles in Stock --see Alfa catalogue, 1911) they would have ordered the ammo from who ever had the capacity to make it ( DWM springs to mind, as they made “Commercial” ammo for all three calibres as stock items.)

Such minor matters as “No headstamp” or different extractor grooves would not have been a problem for DM/DWM; I don’t think Spandau made any Vetterli 10,4x47R before WW I, and a small order such as that of the UVF would not have interested them; As it was, such BP ( 11mm) cartridges were usually “ordered in” as empty cases, and then filled by the Imperial and regional Arsenals, at least in BP era.

When the Germans entered WW I, they seized all the stocks of (Foreign and Surplus) Rifles in the hands of Wholesalers…including the Vetterlis, and ammo for them would have been sourced from the Commercial makers who already previously supplied the Wholesalers. Spandau was too busy with standard 7,9 S and sS to be bothered with odd cartridges like the Vetterli 10.4.

The whole story of the UVF rifles is interesting…many of the M1904 rifles were never used, and only sold off thru the trade in the 1980s…a lot were “smoothbored” ( Shotgun certificate) or Deactivated for sale in Britain, but a number did make it out “untouched”…I found Two here in Aust. (the M71 as well). Whilst the M71 shows signs of drill and other abuse, the M1904s are virtually mint as delivered by Steyr to the Wholesalers.

Regards…sorry to expand this thread into a “gun” thread, but it relates directly to the history of the Ammunition supply. Sometimes the two are inextricably linked.

Doc AV


#15

Doc, thanks for clarifying the point about the Mannlicher. I for one was obviously confused, neither could I figure out why I had never come across an unheadstamped 8 x 50mm Mannlicher during all my time in Northern Ireland.


#16

[quote=“DocAV”]
The whole story of the UVF rifles is interesting…many of the M1904 rifles were never used, and only sold off thru the trade in the 1980s…a lot were “smoothbored” ( Shotgun certificate)
Doc AV[/quote]
There is a “story within a story” here which is worth telling. It is as DocAV says gun related but it goes deep and and interfaces with ammo and gun laws. It involves a famous (unsolved) murder and a lot of double dealing.

In Britain in the 1980s .303 rifles were unsellable. Trade price even for a mint one was £5. A company called R.I.F.L.E. in Derbyshire hit opon an idea to make money. They took .303 no4s and rebored them for .410 shotguns and sold them. Nothing remarkable about that, a good idea, and legal, but it doesn’t end there.

Soon they were taking all sorts of rifles and “smoothboring” them as shotguns but (I am told, I have no personal experience otherwise I would for sure not be posting this) all they were doing was ripping out the rifling and leaving the chambers intact meaning that the guns could still chamber and fire a live round but the accuracy would be appalling.However, in all other aspects it was a fully functioning firearm, just smoothbored.

Doc AV mentions the UVF rifles being smoothbored and I suspect it was them that were doing it.They certainly had links with the UVF as we were later to learn.
R.I.F.L.E were later closed down big time and the princples went to jail for supplying the UVF with “deactivated” AK47s but at the same time clandesinely supplying barrels and parts to reactivate them. They were seriously corrupt people.

However the story goes deeper. Encouraged by their sucess with rifles they started to do the same with handguns. They would take handguns in the junk catagory, rip out the rifling but leave the chamber intact so it could still fire live rounds, weld an extension tube onto the end of the barrel to comply with the the 24" reqiurement for a shotgun and sell them to “collectors” on a shotgun licence which in those days didn’t require a serial no so they were untracable.

About 15 years ago a famous TV presenter Jill Dando was murdered with a smoothbored .380 pistol. The murder has never been solved and the gun never found. A man was convicted but later released. The pistol (I was told, again no personal knowledge I stress) had all the hallmarks of being one of those sold a few years before by R.I F.L.E.

They were very nasty people. As well as guns they sold a lot of (legally) deactivated ammunition so a few people on here would have had (perfectly legal) dealings with them. And bayonets, they sold a lot of bayonets.

What we didn’t know then, and nobody knew, was their close links to terrorism. .


#17

BTW, I have one of those “:Smoothbored” M1904s, and it was Reproofed by Birmingham, with the stamp “Smooth” on the Barrel ( Cal 8mm Smooth). I also have a spare, rifled new Barrel as well, along with a complete and untouched M1904. ( Proofed for “Ball”).

Nice extra info, Vince. Thankyou. Adds to the provenance.

Regards,
Doc AV


#18

[quote=“DocAV”]I think there is some confusiuon here…the Rifles acquired by the UVF in 1911-12 or so, were M1904 Turnbolt Mannlichers (OEWG Steyr) in 7,9 J calibre, the Vetterli rifles , and the M1871 Mausers ( 11mm)–I have Two of the M1904s, and a M1871, this latter with the UVF " Open Hand" stamp on the woodwork.

The “Mannlichers” were not “8mm” ( such a description would indicate 8x50R, and Straight Pull) but 7,9x57 Infanterie Patrone '88, the same cartridge and clip as for the Kommission '88 rifle in German Service.

As to the maker of the un-H/S ammo in all three calibres, I have no idea as to who supplied it. The original Order by the UVF was well prior to WW I, so it could have been mediated by the German Dealer/Wholesaler via any number of Commercial makers; As ammo was supplied by the Wholesalers ( who had all these particular Rifles in Stock --see Alfa catalogue, 1911) they would have ordered the ammo from who ever had the capacity to make it ( DWM springs to mind, as they made “Commercial” ammo for all three calibres as stock items.)

Such minor matters as “No headstamp” or different extractor grooves would not have been a problem for DM/DWM; I don’t think Spandau made any Vetterli 10,4x47R before WW I, and a small order such as that of the UVF would not have interested them; As it was, such BP ( 11mm) cartridges were usually “ordered in” as empty cases, and then filled by the Imperial and regional Arsenals, at least in BP era.

When the Germans entered WW I, they seized all the stocks of (Foreign and Surplus) Rifles in the hands of Wholesalers…including the Vetterlis, and ammo for them would have been sourced from the Commercial makers who already previously supplied the Wholesalers. Spandau was too busy with standard 7,9 S and sS to be bothered with odd cartridges like the Vetterli 10.4.

The whole story of the UVF rifles is interesting…many of the M1904 rifles were never used, and only sold off thru the trade in the 1980s…a lot were “smoothbored” ( Shotgun certificate) or Deactivated for sale in Britain, but a number did make it out “untouched”…I found Two here in Aust. (the M71 as well). Whilst the M71 shows signs of drill and other abuse, the M1904s are virtually mint as delivered by Steyr to the Wholesalers.

Regards…sorry to expand this thread into a “gun” thread, but it relates directly to the history of the Ammunition supply. Sometimes the two are inextricably linked.

Doc AV[/quote]

Hi Doc AV
As a resident of Northern Ireland and having a big interest in all items going back to this 1914 era I am happy to see some accurate information in relation to this period being relayed to fellow collectors. I have some original boxes of ammunition including unmarked 10.4mm, clipped 7.92 (3xclips in a box) and 7.92 box of 10 loose which were all part of this shipment. I hope to upload some photos in the near future.


#19

First of all, welcome to the forum.

There are two things I would like to mention about the “Irish” M88 round.

  1. The brass don’t looks German to me
  2. The round primer. German primers are flat.

@enfield56. Is there any marking on the loading clip?

If a box is known, is it possible uploading a picture?

Thanks in advance, Dutch


#20

Hi
The box of 10 X 7.92 has no markings of any description and is not sealed. The Vetterli box has Mo 1870/ Mo 70/87 nothing else on the box. The box of 3 clips has unforunately been opened and has ripped of part of the green, round seal. This box does not have any makers title nor does the clips or rounds inside. The unopened packet of .303 rds for the Martini Henry rifles has :-
10
Ball Cartridges
for
.303
Magazine Rifles
solid bullet
KYNOCH LIMETED
Witton Birmingham
on the brown paper wrapper which is tied with string

I would post some photos if I could figure out how to upload them onto this site(im a newbie)