7,92x33 dummies


#1

Recently found in a cellar from an former toolmaker. He was working in the war at the erma factory .After his death his family cleaned up the cellar and found a hole box with many different toolmakers gauges all made by erma. Incl in this box they found nine very rare 7,92x33 tool dummies. Tree different types 1943,1944,1945 and one 7,92x57 dummie. I would to share these with the collector whose interested in this matter.


451kr


#2

451 - your 7.92 x 33 Gauges are magnificent. I have two of the full-bulleted pattern in 7.92 x 57, rare but not nearly so rare as the Kurzpatrone
gauges! The basic pattern of my 7.9 x 57 is identical to your Kurzpatr. ones, with groove at case neck and another just above the shoulder. Mine are not from Erma, though. One appears to be from Polte, as it has the marking “P.1939” on it. The other has a marking style I have not seen on the gauges before. It has one line marked “HEER Ww.Su. 1939” on it. I don’t know if the “Ww.Su.” marking is the maker or what it is! Both of my full-bulleted gauges were inspected by WaA42, as were most of these gauges, it would seem.

You also have a nice Erma 7.9 x 57 gauge for the Schusswaffen 98, MG08 and 08/15. I have three similar Erma guages, two marked for the Luftwaffe (WL) with the trademark -style marking like yours, of “Erma” enclosed in a circle, made in 1944, and one early gauge, very scarce I think, marked for the Reichsheer. It is undated, but has the Weimar-style Eagle on it, but is still inspected by “WaA 42J”. I have not seen the German “J” behind the WaA number before, that i can recall.

These “Stahlpatronen” (described as that in a copy of a page from a German ordnance tool price list I have) are very interesting. I have about 25 or so of them representing four distinctly different shapes, two of which, as I mentioned, are “full-bulleted” in profile, probably only representing three types of gauge though.

I tried a scan, but between the shiney surface, and the very lightly etched markings on most of these, the scan was relatively useless.


#3

are these tools manufactured using stainless steel?
you use the sandpaper to polished them, are you have some photos before polished them?


#4

Tiengulden - I am sure the dummies pictured are not stainless steel. I have about 25 of the 7.9 x 57 gauges and they are all hardened tool steel. they take a magnet, so are not true stainless steel, although I suppose it would be possible that they are an alloy. Judging from the fact that they will rust, although not readily probably because they are highly polished and have such a hard surface (I am not a metallurgist nor terribly conversant in the subject of metals), they are not a stainless alloy though.

The hardness of these gauges is attested to by the fact that on one of my full-bulleted-profile gauges mentioned, the original markings were removed for some reason, and the gauge was remarked. It is clear that they gave up trying to polish the markings off - some are still visible. It was eventually decided to cut a large “X” through the original markings, roll the gauge and add the new markings to the other side.

I am sure 451kr’s gauges are like my own as to the material from which they are made.


#5

John,
My gauges are made from hardened tool steel. NOT stainless steel.
I think these gauges made as follow First the shape of the gauge was made on a lathe, after that the markings where made with an etching process,after that the gauge was hardened and grind on a grinder, than moved to the inspector.
Finally after approval the WaA was engraved by hand.

John,
Do you have a copy of the pricelist you mention before?

451kr.


#6

These tools are used to measure the chamber, if it use of stainless steel can be more lasting?


#7

John: It’s my understanding that WwSu (often seen as SuWw) stands for Waffenwerkstatt Spandau (Spandau ordnance workshop) and is probably the actual manufacturer of the gage. The identification of Ww as Werkstatt may be slightly speculative, but Su for Spandau is documented, I believe, in the Preuss book. Most German ordnance depots and shops in the period 1919-45 are identified by a code group based on the first and last letters of the city in which they were located, hence Spandau=Su. JG


#8

Weapons Tooling/gauge??
could be a possible interpretation.

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#9

451kr - I found my copy of the German "Ger


#10

Please contact Bill Woodin at Woodinlab@worldnet.att.net. He is probably the worlds expert on the 7.92x33mm but unfortunately he is not a member of this forum.

Cheers,

Lew


#11

Tiengulden - normally these gauges are not for “measuring the chamber” but rather for measuring headspace.

Regarding the WwSu marking on the 7.9 x 57 gauges, the Waffenwerkstadt explanation seems fine. I am surprised though that the “su” is known to represent Spandau. I would have thought it would represent Suhl, especially considering all the arms indutry activity at Suhl, still today but even more then.


#12

The stainless steels most often used in firearms applications, 415 and 416, are magnetic.

Ray


#13

Ray is correct. “True” stainless steel (non-magnetic) does not lend it self to the production of every part in a firearm. Most firearms that are called “Stainless” are actuall a stainless alloy that is much better referred to as "stain resistant than “stainless” intimating they won’t rust. They will rust. In a fire we had in our store, that of course created a toxix, jungle-like atmosphere in the store for days due to water poured on it and the melting of various materials used in merchandise contained in the room that burned, guns out on the rack but not directly in the fire rusted in hours. among these were “stainless” mini-14s. In fact, the stainless rifles, while not rusting nearly as much as the blued guns, rusted more than parkerized rifles we had - some M1 Garands, a couple of M1 Carbines, and some M1A (semi-automatic copies of the M14 7.62 Nato-caliber U.S. service rifle). All the parkerized guns needed was a wipe-down with an oily rag. Of course, given time and circumstance, parkerized guns will rust also.

The hardened steel gauges probably are more rust-resistant than the stainless alloys used in guns. We didn’t have any rust to speak of on handguns, because they were all locked up in glass display cases, protecting them more than I would have imagined from the smoke, heat, water and toxic atmosphere that accompany a fire like ours.

For interest, while not much ammunition was in the fire, there were boxes of shotgun shells stacked on a shelf, fillers for out sales floor stacks. The face of the boxes burned off and some shells ruptured (the powder detonated, but I hate to call it an explosion). The shells didn’t even fall out of their heel-to-toe position in the boxes! So much for the myth of dire explosions from ammunition in a fire. The aerosol cans of oil, etc., were far more dangerous, as some ruptured to the point of small pieces of the metal of the can breaking off.