7.92x33 made in Afghanistan and Pakistan


#1

I just received my Summer 2013 copy of the AFTE Journal and was amazed by an article by Muhammad Ilyas Yasin from the Punjab Forensic Science Agency. It appears that many AK rifles in both countries are being modified so that they can fire both 7.62x39mm and 7.92x33mm ammunition. In fact, in Pakistan, rifles are being manufactured with this dual caliber capability. The modification is described as:

The new/modified rifle is locally known as a “44 Bore Rifle” or a “KK Rifle”. The 44 is apparently derived from the StG44 from the original German weapon or from L44A1 which is found on the headstamp of most of the reloaded cartridges. The article illustrates 7.62x51 cases headstamps POF 84 L2A2 and (+) MEN95L0003 and 7,92x57 cases with the old 1947 Turkish headstamp which have been modified to 7.92x33mm.

Apparently 7.62x51mm cases are readily available but have a head diameter that is slightly too large to be reloaded into 7.62x39 so the dual caliber chamber was developed. Fired 7.62x39mm cases wind up with a double shoulder, or actually a triple shoulder depending on how close you look.

The author makes an interesting comment. The local gunsmiths and loaders believe that they invented the 7.62x33mm cartridge and do not know of it’s use in WWII.

Something new for you 7.92x33mm collectors out there!

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew, interesting info!

Remains the question then where they got the “44” from if not from the Stg.44 and why at all they needed to invent (or copy) something with a 33mm case?
Makes no sense in my eyes.

I guy I know who returned from Pakistan and the Dharra region said he was surprised to see there German made 7.92x33 in original WWII boxes. So I guess they must have known the caliber there.


#3

I was reporting what was written in the AFTE Journal. I suspect that people saw the ammo which could have come from a lot of places and been around a long time since it is unlikely there were many guns to shoot it. I’m pretty sure the 44 came from the name of the weapon, but the people who talked to the author about it had no idea what the gun was.

Since there was 7.92x33 ammo in the boxes which must have been used as a model, it seems strange that they didn’t pick up “43” which is the designation on the boxes.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Here’s an article from The Firearm Blog about what they call the “CIA Double 44” cartridge.

thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013 … -pakistan/


#5

[quote=“Lew”]

Since there was 7.92x33 ammo in the boxes which must have been used as a model, it seems strange that they didn’t pick up “43” which is the designation on the boxes.

Cheers,
Lew[/quote]

Not that I have an answer but 43 is in use by the 7.62x39 as a model designation which is given on every single ammo tin the Russians made.
Also as people (in particular such without amo knowldege) often refer to a weapon using a certain caliber rather than to a correct ammunition designation it would fit the “44”.
As Pakistanis and Afghans speak Arab (? - at least no Latin based script) I am not sure if those in remote areas can actually read any Latin script as it was used on German ammo boxes.
Actually I would be surprised if any “non ammo specialist” German citizen today could read and interpret any of the markings given on a WWII box.

Just thoughts and still no answer.

Actually such a bicaliber AK should leave very distinctive traces on a fired 7.62x39 case. Have any such cases shown up?


#6

“…7.62x39 so the dual caliber chamber was developed. Fired 7.62x39mm cases wind up with a double shoulder, or actually a triple shoulder depending on how close you look.”

I’m confused about the dual caliber chamber concept. No one would want to fire a 7.92mm bullet through a 7.62mm bore. Or vice-versa. I’d think the only way to use 7.92X33 rounds in an AK would to somehow re-chamber and re-bore an AK-47 barrel to accommodate the 7.92X33. but then you couldn’t use 7.62X39 ammunition (even in a very sloppy chamber) because of the oversize bore, as the smaller bullet would rattle down the bore without making contact. That is, if you the least bit concerned about accuracy and muzzle velocity while using 7.62X39mm ammunition.

The only other option would be to squeeze a 7.92mm bullet down a 7.62mm barrel. Certainly not good practice, but maybe it works. After all, Hatcher talked about squeezing a .45 bullet down a .30 caliber barrel.

I do see how someone could re-form 7.92X57mm or 7.62X51mm brass into 7.92X33mm brass.


#7

i saw a number of MP 44’s in darra in 1992, no one there seemed to know what they were and they said they did not have ammo for them, i did not see any. i think they were hoping to sell them to suckers who thought they were getting some kind of AK! as i recall the price was $500 each.


#8

Back in 2008, when I was E-corresponding with a Gun dealer in Durrah-Adam-Kel, he sent me back photos of the MP44s (amongst other MGs) he had available…there must have been 20 or more of them, some without Butts, etc, but otherwise complete (incl.Mags).

Then I had my heart Op, and lost all contact…did he get liquidated in one of the Battles in the area (Taliban vs Pakistani Army)??

Regards,
Doc AV


#9

DennisK, The AFTE article states:

He goes on to say that a large number of these rifles are being used in Pakistan and Afghanistan. He also says these rifles are being manufactured in large numbers in Pakistan.

Cheers,
Lew.


#10

I’ve posted a request for info on a Pakistani gun website, we’ll see what they have to say.


#11

Thanks to a link in another thread here I have found this entry which is connected to the AFTE folks and their affiliates. There somebody managed to get hold of such cases fired from a bicaliber chamber:

forgottenweapons.com/pathan- … 8x33-kurz/


#12

I hope you guys can open this:
thegunforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2977


#13

I wonder if the Mr Yasin you mention was one of the young Pakistani technicians who Jim Hamby brought to SLICS a few years back, or else if he works with them? I imagine the Pakistani forensic firearm / toolmark department isn’t too vast.