7.92x56 Romanian with 22 76 headstamp


#1

IAA identifies this 7.92x57 as unknown Romanian factory. Sometimes there is a more recent info. Maybe someone knows the production place now?


#2

Vlad, it is Copsa Mica in Cugir


#3

So, you are saying that the same plant (Uzinale Metalugica Di Copsa Mica Si Cugir, Romania) has 2 codes (21 and 22)?


#4

As far as I have been able to find out, yes.


#5

I have also been wondering what the answer to that was for a while. I have that headstamp, it was simply listed as “Plant 22, Romania”.


#6
  • @ EOD: You posted above like this: “It is Copsa Mica in Cugir”. This is completely WRONG since there are two Romanian different towns: one is “Cugir” and another is “Copsa Mica”. The distance between “Cugir” and “Copsa Mica” [measured in straight line] is exactly 74 Km which comes to about 46 miles. The WW2 Romanian headstamp mark “CMC” stands for “Copsa Mica Cugir” but this was about the industrial military complex which manufactured small arms ammunition and some types of infantry weapons like the “7.92mm ZB-30 LMG” and the original Romanian “9mm Orita M1941 SMG”. —> @ sksvlad: That type of cartridge should be mentioned as “7.92X56” since the green steel lacquered cartridge case is about 1mm shorter than normal. Don’t ask why the cartridge case is shorter, it was already a large debate about this subject some time ago on the IAA forum but you may want to read my article printed on pages 6,7,8 and 9 from the IAA Journal, issue # 433 [Sep/Oct 2003] and I gave there a possible explanation. The Romanian made ammo 7.92X56 was imported into USA during the last 6-7 years and this ammo had been manufactured in 1972-73-74-75-76-77-78 by the State plant “22” which was “U.M. Sadu” located in Gorj county. Liviu 09/28/08

#7

Liviu, thank you for letting me kindly know that my info was incorrect. Who was then 324 and 325?


#8

Liviu,
Thanks for correction, it is 7.92x56 and not 7.92x57, I did not realize that. The 1st photo above is a live unfired round, the 2nd is a wasted pick-up at a range. I assumed whoever fired it used a 7.92x57 Mauser. Does 7.92x56 harm a gun firing it?
Now, a different matter, I took the name of Plant#21 from IAA Headstamp ID section. It says: Plant 21, Uzinale Metalugica Di Copsa Mica Si Cugir, Romania. Normally found on cartridge headstamps followed by the letters RPR which stand for Republica Popolara Romana (People’s Republic of Romania). Are you saying that this description is wrong?


#9
  • @ EOD: The Romanian headstamp codes “321”, “322”, “323”, “324” and “325”, all belong to “U.M. Sadu” plant. China also used the factory code “321” but the Romanian headstamps using this code are easily distinguishable [see my comparison photo on page 8 from the IAA Journal, issue # 433, Sep/Oct 2003]. —> @ sksvlad: Any weapon which fires the 7.92X57 rimless round can fire with no problem the Romanian 7.92X56 cartridge with steel case. => The Romanian factory code “21” is for the Cugir plant only and it can be found stamped together with the letters “RPR” if the cartridge was manufactured starting with early 1950s but not later than 1965. “RPR” stands for “Republica Populara Romana” [in Romanian language] which can be translated into English as “Popular Republic of Romania”. During the summer of 1965 Romania became a “Socialist” republic [“RSR”] and this is the reason the “RPR” mark became obsolete and it was no longer stamped on any headstamp starting with 1966. A new “RSR” mark was never used for a Romanian headstamp. Since Poland and Hungary also used the code “21”, the Romanians had the “RPR” mark on some headstamps. The “RPR” mark can be found also with the code “22”, I have a 7.62X39 round with brass case headstamped “RPR 22 65” and in army I fired 7.62X39 cartridges headstamped “RPR 22 62”, “RPR 22 63”, “RPR 22 64” and “RPR 22 65”. The earliest Romanian 7.62X39 round I remember having the “RPR” mark on the headstamp was manfactured in 1958 [headstamped “RPR 22 58”, brass case]. Liviu 09/28/08 P.S. Starting with the year 1966 [when the “RPR” headstamp was no longer used], the ammo manufactured by the Romanian State plant “21” [Cugir plant from Transylvania] was headstamped only with the code “21” at 12 o’clock position and a two digit date at 6 o’clock position. —> NOTE: Somebody should modify and update the info about the Romanian plant “21”, info from the IAA headstamp ID section. That info seems to be from some Italian web-site. All my information from above regarding the Romanian code “21” was printed 5 [five] years ago in my article “Romanian Headstamps Since the Beginning of World War Two” [pages 6 - 9, IAA Journal issue # 433, Sep/Oct 2003] and you think somebody could have enough time to update the IAA headstamp ID section or perhaps they don’t believe me. Let’s hope they’ll do it during the next 5 [five] years …

#10

Liviu-Concerning the updating of information on the IAA Web Site, it is in the process. The original information was put up some years ago and there has been nobody to take on the upkeep and corrections. The entire Headstamp ID section is currently being redone in a much expanded fashion and in a completely different format. But, it is probably at least another year before it will be ready.

I can assure you that we believe your ID information and your article will be cited as a major source of information on Romanian headstamps. At the time the original list was made we know very little about most of the numbered Eastern Block and Chinese factories, especially the names and locations and sometimes not even the country. Thanks to members like yourself we are MUCH better informed now.


#11

Liviu, are these plants all in Gorj? And what plant is 222 ?


#12
  • @ EOD: Not all the time for each headstamp maker’s mark there is a different factory, especially when numerical codes are used. As I mentioned above the Romanian headstamp codes “321”, “322”, “323”, “324” and “325” stand for “U.M. Sadu” located in the town of Bumbesti-Jiu on River Jiu from Gorj county that lies in south-western part of Romania. There were not 5 different ammo plants for each code [see above] but don’t forget about the initial “Sadu” plant and “Sadu II”. “U.M. Sadu” plant manufactured a large variety of small arms ammunition [5.45X39, 7.62X39, 7.62X54R, .30-06, .32 / 7.65X17, 9X18 Makarov, 5.56X45, 7.62X51, .22LR, 9X19 Parabellum, etc.], different types of weapons, hunting cartridges, detonators for the mining industry, pyrotechnical priming devices and also products for the civil market [especially small capacity refrigerators for export]. —> I’ve never heard of the code “222”. If you did mean the code “22”, this one was used by the “U.M. Sadu” plant during the communist regime [starting with early 1950s until 1990]. Liviu 09/29/08

#13

Liviu, thanks for confirming the location.

The code “222” I have seen on 5.45x39 with the Romanian Army when I was on a UN mision in 1997. I had a full magazine of these for disposal but gave the rounds to the Romanian soldiers to replace missing rounds (which got lost sometimes on guard duties). We rechecked the rounds which they got issued and the head stamps were all matching. At that time I did not care for small arms ammo and did not bother to keep some rounds.


#14
  • @ EOD: Well, this code “222” is something new for me. Anyway after 1990 the two major Romanian ammo makers remained “U.M. Sadu” and “Cugir” which is located in Transylvania. Since “Cugir” is known for making ammo caliber 12.7mm and 14.5mm, I assume the code “222” was for “U.M. Sadu”. Too bad you don’t have a headstamp photo showing the “222” code. Liviu 09/29/08

#15
  • @ EOD: Are you sure 100% the code is not “322”??? Liviu 09/29/08

#16

Absolutely, since at that time I was already “collecting” Warsaw Pact manufacturer codes and that one drove me mad.


#17
  • @ EOD: The only maker’s mark I saw with my own eyes on the Romanian headstamps for the 5.45X39 rounds was “322” and “323”. —> QUESTIONS: 1) Those 5.45X39 rounds with the code “222”, did they have a double or triple element headstamp??? 2) Can you remember the two digit date of manufacture??? Liviu 09/30/08

#18

The date was in the 1980s I think and it was a regular hs pattern double-180


#19
  • @ EOD: I remember Romanian made 5.45X39 rounds with the code “322” and a two digit date of manufacture from late 1980s. As you already know, the code “322” is for “U.M. Sadu” and the code “222” has to be too. A picture showing the code “222” would be great!!! Liviu 09/30/08

#20

I wish I had kept at least one of those but at that time I just did not care for small arms ammunition and today I wish I had a photo of it myself.