7,92x57 CNCS FMJ domed primer, no HS?


#1

Any suggestions as to maker? 0.320" diameter projectile at case mouth. 3 pinch marks on mouth crimp. My personal opinion is Italian.

joe






#2

Joe, I do hope I’m not about to put my foot into my mouth again but I think this is one of the five million rounds manufactured by Spandau and exported by Bruno Spiro to Larne, Northern Ireland in 1914. These were intended for the loyalist Ulster Volunteer Force but a lot of it ended up in IRA hands. Also shipped were 25,000 rifles and a large quantity of unmarked 10.35mm Italian Vetterli rounds. I suspect if you pull the bullet you will find Spandau’s mark stamped into the lead.


#3

Jim,

I pulled it and there is something very faint. It is either “D I” or “D M”. I may be seeing DM in my mind, as I know what that would mean. Definitely no “S”. Anyways, 227 grain projectile.

joe




#4

The basemark used by Spandau on its ordinary German military contract rifle cartridges was the letter M, not S. Jack


#5

I am not sure these rounds were made in Germany
The primer does not look German to me.

A fellow collector sends me some pictures of the boxes some years ago.
They also do not look German made to me.


10

Rgds
Dutch


#6

Dutch - depending on whether or not it is true that these rounds were made for Ireland (I note the label is in English), and depending on who in Ireland they were made for, is it possible that these cartridges were purposefully made to NOT look German? Just a thought.


#7

During the 1970’s and 80’s I did three tours in Northern Ireland with the army and these rounds were very common ‘finds’, particularly in Loyalist areas. My own example came from Northern Ireland and is identical to Joe’s. I have no doubt that these were from the 1914 Larne consignment and it is well documented that the Larne consignment did come from Germany - Hamburg I believe. But that doesn’t of course identify the manufacturer.


#8

Jim,

Have you ever pulled one of your rounds to see what the marking on the base of the projectile looks like. Is it an “S”, or a possible “DM”?

Joe


#9

Joe, I haven’t pulled it. I’ve done a little more research and I think I might have mislead you by suggesting the manufacturer as being Spandau. I’ve found a very good report on Wikipedia about this incident and it would appear the ammunition was in fact supplied by Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken…and that would tie in very nicely with the ‘DM’ on the base of your bullet. There is also a very good old thread regarding this ammunition on this forum but I’m afraid I haven’t figured how to link it for you.


#10

Here’s one discussion on the subject. I seem to recall another one but couldn’t find it:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10585&hilit=ireland+clandestine


#11

Thanks Jon, that is the thread I was referring to. The posts by Tentalous are particularly interesting and relevant.


#12

It seems that the best evidence indicating that DWM was involved are the pictures of the Asgard yacht, where Robert and Mary Childers are portrayed posing with Mauser M71 rifles and ammunition crates marked DW&M Hamburg. The 11.15x60R Mauser cartridges reported to come from this source are unheadstamped and have an oval brass primer.

Regarding the 7.9 mm M88 cartridges, these are known to exist with at least three different bullet base markings: M (Spandau), D.M. (DWM) and plain. For this reason, I think that is safe to assume that the cases were made and loaded by some other factory using an assorted supply of bullets. I note some similarities with cartridges made by CRB during 1914, but this doesn’t necessarily mean anything.


#13

Fede: Certainly the possibility that CRB or some other third party actually loaded the 7.9 m/m cartridges would help to account for the domed primers. Jack


#14

I don’t have any technical information to add but it does have the look of ammo that was turning up in NI in the 70s


#15

The base of the projectile seemed to be a very faint example of similar projectiles I have seen. I wonder if the tooling was filled in, as to not make the stand out characters of the tell tale manufacturer. If so, they did not do the best of a job. I did really have to work the camera and lighting to get you the photos I did post. Basically if you briefly look at the base in ordinary light, you see nothing at first.

joe