Help. 0.323" CNCS projectile.
Yes It looks like FN to me also. I was thinking maybe the two characters on the head were Cyrillic letters, but that would possibly translate to " S L".
Joe, then it would be “SV” but as said before it should be Cartoucherie Belge.
“CB” was originally (Before WW I) the “Cartoucherie Russo-Belge” (CRB)…The 1917 Revolution caused the “Russo” part to be dropped from the headstamp.
OK, that went over my head. I never thought the “R” looking letter was possibly a “B”.
Thanks guys! Sometime I read too much into things and can be a little dence.
Does anyone have packets or boxes of military calibers by Cartoucherie Belge? These seems to be very scarce.
What is there history? Were they part of FN at one time or just a sub contractor?
Joe, this was a company established in 1920 with the participation of FN and Eley, and the sales of CB and FN products were also represented by the same company: Schroeder Fréres in Liége. It was absorbed by FN in 1929.
Thanks Fede. That was exactly what I wanted to know.
[quote]“CB” was originally (Before WW I) the “Cartoucherie Russo-Belge” (CRB)…The 1917 Revolution caused the “Russo” part to be dropped from the headstamp.
Doc AV, this Cartoucherie Belge established in 1920 is not related to CRB.
It is definitely Cartoucherie Belge, and I would class that as a commercial-style headstamp, but then again, with no caliber on the headstamp, it could just as easily be military or contract, especially with a FMJ bullet. I think only a box label could be definitive at this point.
John, are you referring to the spitzer ot the round nose soft point above.
Joe - I am referring to the round nose round about which you asked your question regarding whether it was commercial or not. The dated rounds, found with several dates from the early 1920s, and with pointed FMJ bullet, are clearly military and possibly a contract for some other country, since the primary-use rifle cartridge in Belgian was the 7.65 Mauser that most Americans refer to as the 7.65 Argentine cartridge.
Generally speaking, commercial ammunition has the caliber marked on the headstamp. Military ammunition more often does not, with a date seemingly preferred. Then, there was the goofy system used by DWM have their case-drawing number on the headstamp of commercial ammunition, assuming that everyone with a sporting rifle, I guess, had a DWM catalog to refer to. Without one, of course, or without the box label, those cartridges are basically unidentified on the cartridge as to the caliber. Probably more so than when most of that ammo would made, that would be a disaster with the “modern” shooters, many of whom are very uninformed about their own firearms. We used to have many, many people walk in and ask for ammunition in a generic way - like “give me a box of .38s” or “give me a box of .30 caliber,” that when queried, had no idea which .38 or which .30 caliber, or whatever, that they actually had. Accidents waiting to happen!
Militaries, it can be assumed, issue the proper caliber and case type of ammunition for the the weapons issued to their soldiers. The caliber designation is not such an important piece of information in that instance. Of course, there have been exceptions with what could be called “rag-tag” armies like the Chinese PLA during the Korean war (NOT TODAY!), or militaries using too many variations of the same basic caliber, like Japan in WWII with their three different “7.7s.”.
Thanks for the information. That brings me to my next inquiry. Why some sporting ammunition was loaded using military headstamped brass?
Joe - the two most likely answers are reloads and handloads.
Joe - I don’t know why, but SN bullets in older 7.9 rounds (Probably original M88) are not at all unusual. The funny thing on this one is that is has both the stab mouth crimps and the stab neck crimps. I don’t recall seeing any load with both. One of the troubles with a having had a pretty large collection of this caliber is that it is hard now, a couple years later, to remember even what I have seen and what I have not.
I would be inclined to believe that they are reloads, but I don’t have any idea at what level (individual shooter; commercial reloader; factory). The later date ones from the end of WWI found with sporting bullets were likely post war load. Some have cancelled headstamps, some don’t. Some have uncrimped primers, some don’t. I suspect they were made from cases and ammunition that never arrived at the front. For example, the few rounds I had dated from November 1918 (ending month of WWI) on the headstamp all had SN or other forms of commercial bullets. None of mine were military loads like Type S, SmK, of sS.
Maybe Dutch, Peelen or EOD can help with better information on that. It is starting to be all I can do to keep on on the auto pistol stuff, with new headstamps and loadings coming our, it seems, almost daily.
Primer is crimped in place on this round posted above with the “4 95 P” headstamp. Base, rim or neck shoulder intersection shows no signs of firing or reloading. Crimp pattern on neck is precisely uniform in 3 rows of 3 stabs. Measuring them per 3 stabs per row they measure same distance apart. I do not think any handloader would be that precise with a hammer and metal punch. Now the 3 annular rings of pin punches are not concentrically offset the same distance, but the punch marks per anular are exact distance apart. If it was handloaded using primed military brass, they had a machine that put the stab crimps in place one annulus ring at a time. Now that could be.
Edit: The projectile is 0.317" diameter.
I noticed in “Von der Patrone 88 zur Patrone S” by Windisch, Kellner, Micke and Platzer on page 16 there are 2 Platzpatrone pictured with stab crimps similar to what I am picturing. Also the headstamps are similar dates. “2 94 P”, “9 94 S” and “6 99 S”.