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I am going to guess Japanese on #3. Can anyone confirm this?
BTW, what weapons did the Japanese have that used the 7.92
IIRC, the "7.92 MM"s are Canadian, for the Besa MG in UK service, and I THINK the non-headstamped round is Japanese; they fielded a copy of the MG81.
"7,92 MM (date) headstamped ammo was not for “Besa”, but originally for European Covert use (airdrops); the majority was used by OSS /CIA groups after the War,(especially in China) and then Surplussed in the 1960s through Interarms.
Made in the period 1942-44, by DI (Defence Industries Canada) a specific company set up using Dominion CIL ammunition machinery ( a Boxer user) for making Military ammo ( .303, 9mm, 7,92mm) the .303 for Canadian and british Airforce Use, the 7,92 and 9mm for initially Airdrop covert use.)
The Non-headstamped cartridge is definitely Japanese, ( ringed primer) but all the Japanese 7,9mm I have seen have a Three staked primer (like the 6,5mm T38) to distinguish it from the similar looking Type 92 7,7mm Semi Rimmed and the Type 99 Rimless cartridges.
The Japanese 7.9 cartridge (Type 98) was introduced with the German Aircraft MG 17 ( also copied in Japan) for use as a Flexible gun on Aircraft;
Obviously some MG 81s (usually in Binary combinations) were also used, although many more Type 89 and Type 1 Binary 7,7 semi-rimmed guns were made and used.
Interestring these little seen Japanese “non-native” cartrtidges.
Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
At one time, I had one of these in a steel case with ringed, not staked, primer in my old “general” collection. IIRC, I sold it to a fellow in NZ.
.
Regarding the Canadian-made 7.92 x 57 ammunition with anonymous headstamps (caliber and date only), there are 9mm counterparts that were not made during WWII, although dated like the 7.9s - 40 thru 45. There is no reason to believe that these 7.9s were made during WWII either. This was all explained on an earlier thread, and has been gone over in various Journals, etc. It is to long a story to retell here, but it will suffice to say that this was a covert deal involving U.S. agencies. The ammunition went to various places.
John,
did the US made any 7,92 x 57 during WW2?
If yes, what kind of head stamp.
Thanks in advance
Dutch
Dutch - yes, we did make 7.9 x 57 ammunition during WWII. Remington made some for sure, but I have never been able to pin down the headstamp they used. I have two different blanks and a dummy with the headstamp “REM-UMC 7.92M/M” which would be the likely headstamp. However, I don’t have a ball round with this headstamp. I do have a FMJ spitzer bullet round with the REM-UMC 8M/M designation, and a brass primer with purple seal. It certainly was for some military contract, and probably during the war. Woodin Lab has some tracers produced by Remington, as well, but don’t recall the headstamp.
There is also a headstamp “WRA 7.92” that is probably from WWII.
The only ones I can certainly identify as being from WWII were made by Western for China, and most of these rounds are dated, and have two Chinese Ideographs, one at the 9 O’Clock Position and one at the 3 O’Clock position. They are enocuntered with no date at the 6 O’Cock position, in which case the two Chinese ideographs are the entire headstamp, or with the dates 42, 43, or 44. I have, counting Chinese repacked ammo, sealed in China at the neck with a green seal and at the primer with a red seal covering the entire primer, 11 different ball rounds and 4 different dummies. They are found with GM and also with GMCS FMJ Spitzer bullets. The boxes for this ammo were also printed in Chinese. The basic headstamp with date is pictured in “Cartridge Headstamp Guide,” by white and Munhall, as number 367 on page 48.
Now, I said those were the only ones I could positively identify from WWII - it is absolutely a certainty that ammunition in this caliber other than the chinese-contract noted was made during WWII for various lend-lease countries. They are probably with the Remington and Winchester headstamps noted, but regardless, ammo was made. The problem is, I have other U.S. 7.9 with military-type FMJ Spitzer bullets, including one that probably dates from WWI, since it has a copper primer with impressed “U” on it.
There is one other US made 7.9 that saw military service and that is the Winchester proof load with tinned case and WRA 8mm Headstamp that were purchased by the British for proofing of the early BESA guns.
Regards
TonyE