7.92x57 Western Cartridge Contract for China


#1

I am revisiting this headstamp and having problems locating “Tchoungking”. Could anyone help? Where was it and what was it?
image


#2

Sksvlad

I guess you must mean what is now called Chongqing, formerly known as Chungking. This is a major city in SW China (Google Earth Map Ref: 29°30’N x 106°31E). The Chongquing municiple area is said to have had a population of 31.4 million in 2007, making it probably the largest populated area on earth! It once served as the seat of the Chinese government during the Sino-Japanese War of the 1930-40s

John E


#3

This Western Cartridge Company manufactured ammunition has the Official Designation of “Cartridge, Ball Cal. 7.92 M/M & 7.92 M/M Alternative (Chinese)” and is shown on U.S. Army Ordnance Drawing B177551. Over 800,000,000 rounds were made for the Chinese during WWII.

A rough translation of the left box label should be:

America Made
7.9 pointed machine gun bullet
20 Rounds

The right box label should be:

America Made
7.9 pointed rifle bullet
20 Rounds

The three characters at the upper left of the box on the right, I think refer to the cartridges being the Alternative (GMCS) loading. Can anyone verify that?


#4

Thanks. I was relying on Municion.org description. It says: “Winchester Cartridge Co., de East Alton (Illinois). Contratos para el gobierno de Tchoungking a partir de 1942. FOTO: PHIL”. I’ll let Jordi know.


#5

Here is an interesting Chinese contract crate and label for Kynoch GIIz tracer.

Regards
TonyE


#6

To Phil: Mistake corrected in municion.org, thanks.
To Tony: What’s the meaning of “Capture now”?


#7

Thats from the screen shot, some “pop up” of the cursor in the program used was active.


#8

Tony – Did the ammo that came in that crate have a special headstamp for China or was the normal Kynoch GIIz tracer headstamp used?


#9

Phil - I can only presume it had a normal “K44 GIIZ” headstamp, as no special Chinese headstamps are known from that period.

I am sure you have the earler 1930s Kynoch headstamp with the sun symbol in it that was used on Chinese contract ammunition.

Vlad - EOD beat me to answering your question. I did not realise it was ther until after I posted the image!

See you all in St.Louis next week.

Regards
TonyE


#10

The Label sheet has a “H” number, meaning it is an Official British Ammunition Label ( same “H” series as all British Issue ammo); and the crate is a Typical British pattern Early WW II Wooden Ammo crate, usually used for Two Vickers Belts (or Two 7,92 Besa belts). Pakistan still made and used these crates (with Tin liner) into the late 1970s.( “POF .303” 1966 & 67).

Ammo probably contracted to Kynoch by British Gov’t as lend-lease to China.

It may have even been 7,92 Besa-destined ammo which was “relabelled” for China destination.
When belted, the ammo would have been 500 rounds (2 belts) per crate, but cartoned packets would make more content.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#11

DocAv – I have seen smaller metal lined containers that hold 375 rounds in 15 round boxes that are marked:

375 CART
792mm BALL
Mk.2zCTN

It looks like two of these containers would fit in this crate nicely. At least the quantity would be the same as marked on the Chinese label, i.e. 750 rounds. For pictures see:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1662&hilit=Besa

Tony – You mentioned the earlier 1930s Kynoch headstamp with the sun symbol. It took me the longest time to find the one I have. Are they scarce in the UK? Maybe I was just looking in the wrong places!!


#12

They are quite a scarce round here in the UK also, Phill.

Attached are a couple of pictures of my items. The one with a similar style headstamp to yours is a factory dummy dated 1933 and there is an earlier one with a different style from 1931.

I have the Kynoch drawing for the former type and will try to remember to bring a copy to SLICS for you.

Sorry the photos are only low res. scans. If you would like better pictures just shout.

Regards
TonyE


#13

Back in the 80’s a company called 'Oyster Bay Industries" sold this ammo by the tens of thousands. At that time I had just bought my first Maxim 1908 MG and the ammo worked like a dream. It was very cheap to buy at around 5 cents each with shipping. To my surprise, I found that the ammo I bought ( 50,000 rounds) was Boxer primed. To this day I still have some of the brass and it can still be reloaded even after four reloads. I may still have the info slip that was inside one of the wooden case packed with the tin cans of ammo. The condition of the ammo was a crap shoot. Some tins of ammo were like brand new, others were a solid block of verdigris when opened. OBI replaced the bad ammo with no problems.
I found the ammo to be accurate, burned cleanly, and would function any of my 8 mm MG’s or semi-auto rifles. I wish I had more of the ammo.


#14

Rapidrob – If you can find it, I would love to see a scan or photo of info sheet you mentioned!


US Made 7.92 mm Clips in M6 Cans, 1944
#15

OK, let me look in the shop.


#16

I’m unable to locate the label. It’s floating around somewhere safe!
Here’s a photo of a sample of the years I could find: