Hi Rojon - You have a Romanian round. These were commonly loaded with cupro nickel bullets. What color is the primer annulus? -Ger
Yes…CMC = Copsa Mica-Cugir (1940)
As I saw until now…ALMOST all bullets are (were) made of brass or brass plated…that’s the reason I say this round is…“unusual” .
I think the primer annulus is black…most likely…
Hi Rojon - you appear to have a light ball round, a common loading. -Ger
So…it appears it’s a usual/common 7.92x57mm Mauser round…??
But the bullet…?? As I said…it’s magnetic and it has steel shine…it doesn’t look at all like most of bullets (made from copper/brass or copper/brass plated…)… !
Hi Rojon - Yes, that’s because it’s a cupro nickel clad bullet instead of a tombak clad one. Your round is not uncommon. -Ger
From an old Forum thread, below is a photo group by Phil Butler of a 1943 Romanian CMC box label, 5 rounds and stripper clip. The cupro nickel bullet jacket can be seen clearly.
Below is a listing of Romanian WW2 era 7.92x57mm compiled by Phil Butler and discussed in a thread here on the forum, link below.
Note that for the entire list all have cupronickel-clad steel (CNCS) bullet jackets.
Quoting Phil Butler:
"Pre-WWII and WWII Romanian 7.9x57mm headstamps
In another thread a packet label is shown with a loading date of 3 MAR 1943. The latest of the wartime “PA” headstamps that I have a record of is dated 1942. Does anyone know of a 1943 (or 1944) dated “PA” round?
Also if anyone can add to my small list of pre-WWII and WWII Romanian 7.9x57mm headstamps I would appreciate it a lot.
- = added from responses
19/CMC/37/7.92/ (not verified)
19/CMC/38/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
19/CMC/39/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
19/CMC/39/7.92/ Dummy (CNCS, fluted case)
19/CMC/40/7.92/ S Ball (black annulus)
19 CMC 40 7.92.D S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
19/CMC/40/7.92/ SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
19 CMC 40 7.92.D SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
19 CMC 41 7.92.D S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
*19/CMC/41/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
19 CMC 41 7.92.D SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
19/CMC/42/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
19 CMC 42 7.92.D S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
19 CMC 42 7.92.D SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
19 CMC 43 7.92.D S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
19 CMC 43 7.92.D SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
19 CMC 44 7.92.D S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
*P/1936/A/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
P/1937/A/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
P/1938/A/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
P 1938 A 7.92- „D” S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
*P/1939/A/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
P 1939 A 7.92- „D” S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
P/1940/A/7.92/ S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
P 1940 A 7.92- „D” S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
*P 1940 A 7.92- „D” SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
*P 1941 A 7.92- „D” S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
P 1941 A 7.92- „D” SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
P 1942 A 7.92- „D” S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
*P 1943 A 7.92- „D” S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
*P 1943 A 7.92- „D” SS Ball (CNCS, green annulus)
US Navy - 1957-1963 - Fire Control Technician
Worldwide 7.9x57mm related items"
Rojon - I just checked the catalog of my 7.9 x 57 collection, which
I retained for research purposes when I gave up my collection of
that caliber ammunition. I had 26 pe-1946 Romanian 7.9 x 57 mm
cartridges. ALL of them had CNCS (cupronickel-clad steel) bullets.
I have never seen a Romanian 7.9 with a brass bullet jacket, as you
mention that “most you have seen” have them. Even the Communist
era rounds do NOT have brass jackets. They are GMCS projectiles
(gilding metal-clad steel, sometimes called “copper” or “tombac.”)
As others have said, the cartridge you describe is a very standard
Romanian variation. For that country’s production, there is nothing
unusual about it.
Thank you !
My bad…I try to learn by the fly… ;-/ I think I saw somewhere…written about 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridges from WW2…something like brass (or copper) bullet jacket…
The colour and the shine of “this” 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge bullet are simply different from all other bullets I saw… So…it is useful to send you a photo…?
Yes, pictures would be good.
Is that a german ammo stripper clip… ?
If your cartridge was mine I would give it a good clean. It is in a neglected condition and if clean you will then see the colour of the projectile. I would use HCl (hydrochloric acid) to either dip the projectile into it for 5 seconds and wash off with water. It goes white but use OOOO grade steel wool to gently remove the film and grime. Wash or soak in sodium bicarbonate (baking powder) solution to neutralise any acid residues. This is my standard cleaning procedure. Or you can use the acid on a cotton bud to keep it away from the annulus sealant and clean the whole case. I think the case would stay a coppered colour but it may still shine like brass. Your cartridge and your choice.
If it must stay in as found condition then do nothing. Just trying to help.
Have you ever cleaned live rounds ? Or just casings…? For rusted/corroded relics (not live rounds !..) I use vinegar (+/- salt)…and smooth steel wool (+/- a “little” brush)…
Anyway, I learned something…thank you .
I have cleaned many different items in my collection. Many different ways to do it and your method is perhaps a mild way to achieve the same result. It is your choice how you clean your item. If I had the round you show I would clean it my way but the end result should be a cleaned undamaged cartridge. I believe any corrosion should always be removed as it causes brass to go copper colour or cause pitting. I am no expert and do not wish to tell anyone how they should treat their collection. Just preserve the item for the future. cheers.
So ‘my’ cartridge has … the first type bullet … right ?
Perhaps,…the 2nd one type is that type with “D” (brass scrap)… ?
CNCS indeed means cupronickel clad steel.
The bullet jacket is made of steel, which is clad by a thin layer (around 10 percent of jacket thickness) of cupronickel (in French maillechort, also called German silver) to prevent it from rusting. The bullet looks like silver in a way.
An alternative would be GMCS: gilding metal clad steel, using gilding (tombak, brass with 90 percent copper) to protect the steel jacket. This is the way its typically done in Germany. The bullet looks like copper.
If no steel is used, jackets are typically entirely made from gilding.
Jackets made entirely from cupronickel (about 90 percent copper, 10 percent nickel) were more or less only used in the early period of jacketed bullets, because they tend to foul the barrel (cover the bore surface with hard to remove jacket material).
The S bullet is the lighter (10 g) bullet type adopted in Germany 1903.
The sS bullet is the heavier (12.8 g) one, introduced in WW1 for long range machine gun use and adopted 1930 in Germany as standard for rilfes as well as machine guns.
P.S. I see you deleted your question regarding CNCS. Never mind.
JPeelen: A footnote on cupro nickel clad jackets. I’ve noticed that rifle cartridges produced in the Netherlands and Greece during or just after WW.I employ cupro nickel jackets, whereas the normal jacketing material in these countries was CN clad steel. My thought is that normally the jacketing material for Holland and Greece was obtained either in Germany or Austria and that the outbreak of war in 1914 forced them to obtain cupro nickel as a second choice from wherever, perhaps the U.S. Jack
Sorry, but I thought the question is not good ! ;-/ Anyway…thank you !
SO…there were 2 main 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridges (bullets…), in WW2: CNCS (cupro-nickel…) and GMCS (tombak…), right ?
SO…‘my’ bullet (cartridge) “is” CNCS, right ?
19/CMC/40/7.92/ S Ball (black annulus)
19 CMC 40 7.92.D S Ball (CNCS, black annulus)
…which one of these two is “my” bullet (cartridge) ? or other…?!?
“Your” cartridge has the same headstamp as the first one: the “/” in the list represent the radial lines on the case head, also called segment lines.
So " 19 / CMS / 40 / 7.92 " from the list exactly matches the headstamp of your cartridge.
On the other hand, " 19 CMC 40 7.92 D " does not match your cartridge, because it has no radial lines (no “/”) and there is a D present that your cartridge does not show.
CNCS and GMCS bullets are not limited to the WW2 period. Its only one of many elements that help in identifying a cartridge. From CNCS/GMCS alone no conclusions can be made.
Ok…thank you !
I asked about CNCS (cupro-nickel…) and GMCS (tombak…) bullets only related to WW2…as the main types of 7.92x57mm Mauser bullets/cartridges .
As I said, most of (almost all…) the bullets (+/- cartridges…) I saw looks like they are of GMCS type, not CNCS (‘because of’ the colour, the shine, magnetic/non-magnetic…; GMCS - copper colour/shine while CNCS - steel colour/shine…) .
I thought there were produced CNCS (cupro-nickel…) and GMCS (tombak…) for/because of “special” purposes/causes (for ex. … shortage of copper… OR one of them was produced for a ‘specific’ purpose, like AT, or for MG…etc etc…).
Which other types of 7.92x57mm Mauser bullets were “specific” to the WW2 time frame ?