7.9mm box labels P90D-Pak-ak


#1

I am trying to locate photos/scans of these labels - TN 4622-001, TN 4622-004, TN 4622-005 (the numbers at the lower left margin of the label). For every change in case lot, bullet, powder, primer, etc. Munitionfabriken vormals Sellier und Bellot, Werk Vlasim, Prag, Czechoslovakia, assigned a new number to the labels. A friend says that there has to be a label where Pak is shown (he is usually correct) and I am trying to prove or disprove this. I would like to see what -004 and -005 have on them. Any help would be appreciated.


#2

I’ve got a bunch of boxed German ammo in my collection, I’ll see if I have any of your missing labels in there…

Mike


#3

Phil - I have a bad xerox of the box TN 4622-005. Just as did the 006 labels, it contained the PaK headstamp. The 006 box laberl was also found with just the ak lot 2 of 40 headstamps in it as well.

The only difference I can see in all of the data printed on the two box labels, oo5 and 006, is that the last entry on the third line of the label (the powder data line) is “6T/40” on label 005 and “5T/40” on label 006. Label 005 also abbreviates the word “Serie” right before those numbers to “Ser.” while label 006 spells it out to “Serie”. Thos echanges, of course, constitute enough for a new label printing, and therefor the next higher label number.

The xerox will not make a legible scan, I am sure. If you really need a copy, I will xerox it to the best I can make it and mail it to you or FAX it to you. PM me a mailing address and message if you want it either of these ways.

I have never seen or heard of a label that showed the factory designator as Pak, which was for sure an error in instructions to the bunter-maker from the factory, as it was corrected later in the lot. That doesn’t mean it does not exist, of course. If you have full boxes of those, it is a whole new ball game, but previously, the lot 2 of 40 with “ak” has been quite a bit rarer than that with “Pak.” One would have thought the opposite would have been true.

John Moss


#4

John - Thanks a lot. One down and one to go!!
Phil


#5

The Czechs were occupied completely byt the Germans in mid 1939, and immediately the HWA began applying German coding principles to Czech ordnance suppliers. In 1939, the Ammo factory system was still under the “P” codes(Patronenfabrik + Number); S&B became “P90D” in 1939; in 1940, they changed this to the “lower case letter” codes (two or three letters); S&B became “ak”

Probably, as mentioned, because of a misunderstanding in German to Czech translation ( although S&B used German widely for its technical materials), the whole “Patronenfabrik ak” was rendered as “Pak” in the initial lots of ammo.

I notice that there is also the “Z” of the ZB Plant of Bratislava… on some of the headstamps, along with the “ak” mark… any significance? (maybe initial case maker, etc??

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#6

I would love to see pictures of any German-occupied Czechoslovakian headstamp with both the “Z” and the “ak” on the same round. I have never heard of this before. There are 7.9 x 57 and 9mm 08 rounds, at least, with the German headstamp format but Czech factory designator (Z St 3 43, for example) from both Munitionsfabriken vormals Sellier & Bellot (ak code, but using factory designator “SB” instead) and Waffenwerk Br


#7

There were 3 different styles of headstamps (that I am aware of) on 7.9x57mm ammunition in use during the early German occupation period 1939-1942.

  1. The normal prewar Czech military style
  2. German style with SB or Z factory designator
  3. German style with German coded factory designator P90D-Pak-ak or P14A-dou.

The whys and wherefors I have never seen any documentation on. I know the second style can be found in boxes with Swedish labels but that was discussed on another thread.


#8

Phil - regarding the 7.9s that have red primer seals and green neck seals not normal to the country and date of the original rounds, these did come out of China. It is my personal opinion that they are not reloads, but rather simply sealed in China for whatever purpose. I have four instances of these same seals on the Western U.S. contract rounds with chinese symbols on the headstamp. In all cases the bullet is GM - three out of four are GMCS, with the forth being just GM and appropriate for the 1942 date. Original American loadings are found with GM and GMCS bullets in that date. The ogives are the same as the American bullets, and the domed primer is the same. My Czech one is headstamped “19 l Z l 40 l II l” and has a very thin red primer seal. It is easy to see that the primer is a flat brass primer with a green seal, underneath the red Chinese seal. Obviously the original Czech primer. The bullet is type s.S. CNCS of Czech characteristics. The bullet crimps on mine are untampered with and are consistant with the original country of origin. Why the chinese would simply reseal them, I don’t know. It is possible they replaced the powder also while using the original primers and bullets in each case, but the condition and style of the bullet mouth crimps makes that unlikely, in my view.

The headstamp on the Czech one is interesting because like the two you showed, the date is 1940, after the German occupation of Czechoslovakia. It is possible that these rounds came to China after the war and the Communist accession of power in China (and Czechoslovakia). It is possible, but less likely, that they were supplied during the war to Japan for the various 8mm weapons in use, including ZB zv 26 LMGS that were captured from China earlier, and then the ammunition was recaptured by the Chinese. I doubt we will ever know the truth of it.

Regarding the Czech SB and Z headstamps, in German style, that went to Sweden, we have the documentation of the box labels and a Swedish wall chart that I have in my possession, that show these rounds. No question that they were, at least in part, for Sweden. I suspect they represented partial payment of a trade balance between the Third Reich and Sweden. Not an unusual thing at all; we have done the same thing with Israel.

By the way, between you and Dutch, we are getting great pictures of some really good and interesting 7.9 stuff. Thanks!


#9

John, I looked closer at the Czech rounds with the red primer seals and green mouths. I can see no signs of them having been reloaded either. The original green annulus can be seen under the red also. Interesting!!
Phil


#10

To confuse all, I would like to show this label.

It is an


#11

While looking through the book