7.9mm hollow points


#1

I’ve seen many different ways that people have tried to alter FMJ military bullets into a hunting bullet but this is the first I have seen where it was done on a commercial basis!

Does anyone know who put these out? From the wording on the label it looks like it might have been done in the UK. Maybe not.


#2

The ammo is obviously Kynoch Military but I would be suprised if they were susequently converted in Britain or by a British company unless it was purely for export. There was virtually zero commercial demand for that calibre in the home market and not a great deal within the British Empire except maybe Australia and Canada from war trophy rifles.
The duplication of the (almost) Kynoch yellow in the label and a typeface for the printing very similar to the typeface used by Kynoch should be noted. It may have been anything from intentionally misleading to just a coincidence, hard to say.

Actually, to be ballistically pedandic that small hollowpoint would not work in soft flesh anyway. The surface area of the exterior surface around the nose is greater than the surface area inside the hollowpoint. To what extent depends on how deep the hollow point actually goes, but they would be silly to go very deep into a bullet with an exposed lead base.

So on impact in a fluid (which is more or less what flesh is) larger exterior surface beats smaller interior surface area and the hollow point would actually be forced closed rather than open up. The only way to create an effective hollowpoint is to open up a much bigger hole than that and then you seriously risk shooting the core out. Even a small opening like the one pictured puts you on thin ice from that point of view.

I have in my mis-spent youth tried all these things.

Just one other observation, $14.65 is pretty much the current price (a bit high even) for a box of modern made factory fresh SP ammo in this calibre (Privi etc). Way too high for mil-spec junk* with a sixty year old plus headstamp. That can’t be the 1950s price which is the sort of time frame I would have thought likely.
I’m sure no cartridge collector/dealer would write on a box. Do you know where that came from? Even if it was a show price it wouldn’t be to the last 5c it would be rounded up to $15

*From a shooting point of view, no offence intended


#3

Vince - The wording of the label, such as “English Manufacture” and “Ex Army Stocks” in my opinion almost guarantees this label was done in England. It is not Continental or North American wording.

These hollow points are often created for one or two purposes - to make the ammo legal to sell where hard-point ammunition is not, like in Germany, or to get around hunting laws. I have seen
very little “altered ball” that will expand at all. Your point about core-shoot outs is well taken - it is a real danger.

Can’t comment on ammo prices. While the price on ammo has gone way up lately, due to the “Obama factor” and hoarding in the U.S., the fact is that for the last twenty years or so in the USA, ammunition has been way cheaper, when adjusted for inflation, than perhaps at any time in U.S. History, much cheaper than in the 1960s and early 1970s. Some years ago, an old man brought his Beretta .25 Pistol into the store to get a new magazine (he lost his), and felt he needed to have his original receipt to “keep out of trouble” having the gun with him. I had sold him the gun originally some 15 years before. At that time, the little Beretta Pistol was 39.50 USD, and a box of .25 auto ammo on the receipt was 8.95 USD. At the time he brought it in for the magazine, the gun was 225.00 USD and the ammo on our shelf, new commercial, was 8.95 USD, the same price he had paid years ao. That was not the list price - nobody could seel ammo at the list price in those years due to price cutting by discount houses, and ammo became incrediably cheap compared to years before.

Availablility of any given caliber of ammunition dictates the price on the market. If there is plenty of a caliber, like 8 mm around, than new importations will be cheap. If the market in that caliber has been “dry” for a long time, it can be almost as much as commercial ammunition.

Regarding prices, in stores in America you almost never see a price like “$15.00” due to the perceived psychology of selling (which I always thought was rubbish). A price like “$14.95” is exactly what you would see in retail stores, and with some gun show dealers even. It does no good in a store to have an even price in most states, as sales tax must be added anyway, so the prices always come out uneven. You know the old game - $99.95 sounds cheaper than
$100.00! Silly, isn’t it? But, a fact.


#4

I am uncomfortable with the expression “English Manufacture”. Its just not an expression or a choice of words that is used over here ever.
You might see Made in Britain or British made. Latterly even UK made. England is not Britain it is just one of the component countries but we tend to play down the divisions. About the only time you would see a country as the place of origin is when there is a regional product. Usually food or produce. Missing out the obvious example of Whisky I will go to Scottish beef, English Cheese or Welsh Lamb. Jersey potatoes Manx kippers etc
As for ammo? no, I don’t think so. You would have to go a lot further back in time to when we in England believed we were better than the Scots or Welsh to find “Made in England” and even then it would be “Made in England” not “English Manufacture”.


#5

Sorry John, but I am totally with Vince here. “English Manufacture” is simply not an expression that would be used in the UK. Also “Ex-army stocks” is not common parlance. It would much more likely to be “Military Surplus” or something similar.

I suspect that these were done somewhere abroad and the “English manufacture” refers to the original ammo from Kynoch. Also, drilling holes in ex-military FMJ bullets is not something that is seen much in the UK. What little hunting/ deer stalking we have is mainly done with proper soft point bullets, as so few shots are fired that it is not worth trusting anything but the proper load.

Regards
TonyE


#6

I bow to you guys knowledge of your language. It is not American wording either. It would say “Made in England” and “Military Surplus”, or something like that. We never say “ex-military stocks” regarding our own military ammo either, at least in my part of the USA. Of course, we are a big country in size, and their really is No “American English.” It varies all over the country according to region, although due to television, the differences are shrinking. When I was a youngster and there was little or no television about, there were people from parts of America that I could not understand when they spoke, any more than if they were speaking German or French. That is not so prevalent now, but still exists in the really rural areas of various parts of the country, where people aren’t so mobile.

If done in America, that label was done by someone trying to make it sound British, as I thought it did.


#7

“Not English Make” was part of the proof mark applied by the London and Birmingham proof marks to foreign firearms. I do not know whether it applied to scots, Welsh or Ulster made arms.


#8

Orange - that is true. We used to import guns (mostly guns turned in to authorities) from England. They used to take them from their citizens and sell them to our dealers. I have seen
literally dozens and dozens of the guns with the “Not English Made” appellation on them.


#9

John, your comments about local accents are as true in Britain as anywhere else. My grandfather came from Newcastle 250 miles NE of here. Yet in London he struggled to be understood. Divided as we are by a common lanuage etc. We all think we speak the same language.TV as you say has been a great leveller. But when I go to the US for example, or even posting on here, I modify what I say so I will be understood.

I don’t think is veering off topic to dicuss the use of language because its subtle but significant in many cases. I would not recognise the term “not English made” on any firearm sold within Britain. Indeed it would provoke protests from the Welsh and the Scots who are remarkably touchy about such things.

These things still matter to some people. They can be as as hot on it as say the Quebec French. The term English is regarded as a bit non PC these days.


#10

Vince - Interesting you say you would not recognize the term “Not English Made” on a firearm. It would be very possible, being in the UK, that you would never see it. There was (is?) a law that any non-British firearm being EXPORTED from England had to go through the British proof house. It did not have to pass proof, but did have to go through the procedure, where it could be refused from proof simply because it has a small broken part. It was still allowed to be exported.

Those passing proof were stamped “Not English Made” but later they seemed to stop that, and the guns simply had a myriad of little British proof marks on them. I always though all those German Lugers, Colt .45s, etc. that had British Proofs got them on their way INTO the UK. In truth, they got them on their way OUT.


#11

The price shown on this box would not be strange for this type of ammo sold in Australia. There are commercial hunting loads available now but in years gone by - ex mil ammo was commonly bought and modified (mainly) for hunting feral pigs that were/are numerous and a pest.
“English Made” would be a selling point in Australia although being non corrosive would usually be the biggest selling point after price.

I am not saying that these were modified in Australia or for our market but they would have sold well over here.


#12

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Vince - Interesting you say you would not recognize the term “Not English Made” on a firearm. It would be very possible, being in the UK, that you would never see it. There was (is?) a law that any non-British firearm being EXPORTED from England had to go through the British proof house. It did not have to pass proof, but did have to go through the procedure, where it could be refused from proof simply because it has a small broken part. It was still allowed to be exported.

Those passing proof were stamped “Not English Made” but later they seemed to stop that, and the guns simply had a myriad of little British proof marks on them. I always though all those German Lugers, Colt .45s, etc. that had British Proofs got them on their way INTO the UK. In truth, they got them on their way OUT.[/quote]
John, proof marks are a big subject in their own right but not for here. A lot of guns sold here, I was going to say most but then I hesitated, do not even have UK proof marks any more. The proof marks from the country of origin are recognised.


#13

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Orange - that is true. We used to import guns (mostly guns turned in to authorities) from England. They used to take them from their citizens and sell them to our dealers. I have seen
literally dozens and dozens of the guns with the “Not English Made” appellation on them.[/quote]
John, what sort of timeframe are we talking about?


#14

Vince - late 1960s. We had an English Agent, Mr. Brown at W. Richards Ltd., Liverpool, that used to watch for sales, and then bid on our behalf. We not only got big shipments of used guns that way (our biggest shipment was 850+/- pistols (including 80 Artillery Lugers, 3 Webley Fosburys, many standard Army-type Lugers, a bunch of C96 Mausers, lots of Enfield .38s and some Webley .455s and .38s,and dozens of miscellaneous pistols), but that was the way we got all of Kynochs left over Mauser stripper clips (32,000 of them). The big 800-gun shipment included a suit of armor and three cartridge boards, as I recall. Over the years, we got many cartridge boards from England. Most are in the Cody Museum now, but I don’t know if they are displayed or not. I have never been there, but my former boss lives in Cody now.

Those were the days. We were constantly getting little shipments of from ten to twenty handguns. Not many rifles or shotguns. Our understanding were that all of the handguns were from amnesty turn-ins by citizens, including the British service pieces by then obsolete, I guess, so sold in lots. We didn’t get nearly all the lots - could not have afforded them if we had, but we got some great stuff. It was really that one 800 gun shipment, I think, that started us on the way to being a very big shop. At the time, there were three or perhaps four of us working in the store, including the owner. By the time we closed, I believe we had 16 people working there.

We used to get some ammo too - lots of individual boxes of British calibers, as well as odds and ends of continental ammunition. I remember we had plenty of .500 Nitro, and even about 40 or 50 rounds of .577 Rewa.

Today, I go into a California gun shop and there is nothing interesting to look at, for the most part.


#15

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Of course, we are a big country in size, and their really is No “American English.” It varies all over the country according to region, although due to television, the differences are shrinking. When I was a youngster and there was little or no television about, there were people from parts of America that I could not understand when they spoke, any more than if they were speaking German or French. That is not so prevalent now, but still exists in the really rural areas of various parts of the country, where people aren’t so mobile.
[/quote]
UK English is becoming more like American English these days due to TV as well. Most major TV channels in the UK air US TV “shows” or “programs” as we say here. A few years ago you would never hear the phrase “call” someone, as in speak to someone on the phone but now it is in common usage. Even worse is the what people my age seem to speak. When I was in school, it was a bizarre mixture of cockney, “gangsta” rapper talk and american slang. I struggled to understand it sometimes, and tried to avoid using any of it. Sorry for the OT post.


#16

The Conversion of FMJ to Hollow Point by drilling, was one of the systems used by Interarms back in the 1950s and 60s to modify FMJ ammo for “sportsmen”. Interarms did most of this work with Lapua in Finland, and supplied to the British Commonwealth trade various Packets with "Private "labels, as well as Lapua repacks (Red&White Boxes) and so on. They may also have done some work in the USA as well (converted other calibres, such as 7,35 Italian, which came from Finland etc.)
Lapua mostly substituted projectiles, (for soft Points),but unknown if it drilled FMJs as well.

The Use of the term “7,92” is the Typical British(Military) Nomenclature for the 7,9mm (German) cartridge; The Use of “English Manufacture” would be an added selling spiel for Interarms, wherever it was sold (British Commonwealth, USA, etc).

The print style (Font) is Kynock’s ( seen also on export Labels .30 belted ammo of the period…so Interarms could have contracted Kynock to do the work, or even used the same printer to make the labels…Interarms had a Warehouse and facility in Manchester in those Years…

The Mystery deepens…
Regards, and Merry Xmas,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#17

As Orange pointed out earlier in this thread the text of the legend accompanying the proof mark was “Not English Make.” Perhaps variant wording was used, but I’m familiar with the version he mentioned. Jack