7.9x33 Headstamp "dou - St 6 45"?

I tried a search in previous posts, but without actually reading through the entirety of each post, (which I do not have time to do now), I did not find the answer.

Question: [Low resolution photo is not mine] This is described as being produced in a Czech factory, “Waffenwerke Brunn”, the fectory being run by the Waffen SS for ammunituon for their own use in the STG-44. The box lable is not shown.
Any truth to this SS link?
The box/ammo without stripper clips is listed on Gun Broker for $115.
Just trying to learn, not interested in buying.
Thanks.

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Under German occupation, Czechoslovakia was divided. Slovakia became a formally independent satellite state, headed by a priest.
The Czech part (Böhmen und Mähren in German) came under direct German control. The best known was Reinhard Heydrich of the SS, later killed by Kubis and Gabcik. The SS generally was no doubt in charge in the Czech part. But they could not simply do as they pleased, as the armament factories worked for Heereswaffenamt. Of course, a lot of things on the side were possible.

Factory “dou” was located in Slovakia, city of Povazka-Bystrica.

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Zbrojovka Brno (Czech Republic - in the war Böhmen und Mähren) had a branch in Slovakia. This was called “Zbrojovka Brno závod II. Povážské strojárne Československo”. Ammunition was never produced in Brno. Only in the factory in Slovakia.

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There is an excellent book on the German factory in Occupied Poland (kam) which was clearly run by the SS and the slave labor was supplied by the SS. It was under the “management” of Hasag, private company run by an SS General. At least that is the arrangement as I understand it.

I have been told the same existed in German occupier arsenals including S&B and apparently SFM. I am not clear on how dou was managed during the war since the factory was in an “independent” country. but the company, as I understand it, was run out of a German Occupied Czech area. I have been told by Slovaks that there was a significant SS presence at dou during the war.

This is what I know, and some or much of it could be wrong. I am sure ammunition production was reported up through Heereswaffenamt but the actual management of the plant was by the SS. A data point is that in 1943 the dou factory ;produced 9mx19mm ammunition with a different load and a different powder and packed it in a 30 round box with 5 round stripper clips for the Zk-383 machine pistol which apparently was used by both the Slovaks and the Bulgarians.

I am looking fofrward to corrections and added informations!

Cheers,
Lew

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The most important thing I would like to correct is a very sad matter. The use of slave labor was not an indicator of a factory being under SS control.
The use of slave labour was something each and every German enterprise did or it had to face being closed down due to lack of employees.
Not only Krupp, IG Farben and similar big players did it, but it went down the whole ladder even to small farms. Because the farmer and probably his sons had been drafted, the farmer’s wife and perhaps an older farm hand were given slave labourers to operate the farm. Slave labourers were supplied by the Wehrmacht (prisoners of war) or the SS (concentration camp inmates and people simply arrested for this very purpose on the streets of occupied countries).
The conclusion that only SS controlled enterprises used slave labour is plain wrong. Literally every enterprise in Germany did it, because the former employees were away in military service.

Your promotion of Paul Budin of Hasag to the rank of “SS General” paints, sorry, a very American black and white only picture. There is absolutely no doubt he was an ardent Nazi until the very end. But he joined Hasag in 1931. Power thirsty, he joined the Nazi party in early 1933 (“Märzgefallener” was the sarcastic name for these types). After discovering he was the member of two Masonic Lodges, he was kicked out of the Nazi party in 1938. I suspect, becoming a Freemason represented an earlier attempt to have the correct connections. This setback may have led to his attempts to prove him being the super Nazi. Anyway, in 1942 he still was only the equivalent of a lieutenant colonel in the SS. He always smade it a point that he recieved his orders directly from Albert Speer.

Hasag was led by an ardent Nazi and owned by Dresdner Bank and ADCA bank. It was not an SS operation as you seem to believe.

I think we should stop using SS as a socket puppet. To get on with a career in Nazi Germany, one either had to be an ardent Nazi (I kow a lot of my relatives were) or (very rarely) give that impression. This whole limiting of crimes like slave labour to the SS is simply barking up the wrong tree. Practically everyone in Germany was more or less involved.
What sets apart the SS are the mass exterminations and wanton indiscriminate killings, as soon as the opportunity arose.

I very much recommend anyone to read the book on Hasag Kamienna you mention. It is “Death comes in Yellow” by Felicia Karay, because it describes how harm also comes from others than the SS. She also wrote a second book about her time as a slave labourer at Hasag Leipzig (Wir lebten zwischen Granaten und Gedichten).

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Thanks, much appreciated.

The $7.66 per round seems high, without knowing if the box is intact, and not knowing if the lable is there… thoughts?

As a POW, one of my uncles was sent to Germany after Belgian defeat , May 1940. He ended up in a small town somewhere in the countryside. On the marketplace, farmers made their choice, looking for labourers on the fields and on the farm. My uncle spoke fluently German and became a confident of his German boss.

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Thank you my friend! My copy of “Death Comes in Yellow” disappeared when I loaned it out and it was subsequently loaned again. That was quite a few years ago. I have just ordered another copy. I think I remember that the SS ran the camp where the slave workers were kept and also supplied these workers at kam. I have not seen specific reference to slave workers in S&B and dou but I wouldn’t be surprised. I have read that Goering’s Brother had some involvement with S&B and protected workers there—another interesting story.

Paul Budin is not the first Lt Col I have promoted, but none of them was being promoted to General, particularly SS General. I will have to read that part of Ms Karay’s book again.

I never meant to imply that only SS controlled enterprises used slave labor. It does seem that many, probably most owners of significant businesses joined the Nazi party but in the atmosphere of the day, they had little choice.

I know DWM operated FN during the war and Geco operated SFM. I read in a document which I can’t recall that the SS was given control (or some similar word) of the ammunition factories in the occupied countries, but don’t recall any reference to SS involvement with SFM and FN but perhaps others know of some.

There were a number of other Nazi organizations that pretty bad guys, and some well respected authors have included the Army in Russia in that group, but Russia and the entire Eastern front was brutal and I don’t know of an army that has been in intense combat that has not had issues with brutality.

There was a lot of the SS, as you know, that was outside of the SS combat units that fought with the Army. There is ample evidence that the SS, in total, had problems getting weapons and ammunition, both before the warand during theearly years. According to some accounts Hitler walked a thin line between his Generals and the Nazi party on this issue until 1942 or so when the Army committed to supplying the SS, particularly the combat units, but still refused to supply the prison camp guards and SS training units, or so I have read. This need to supply themselves separately with ammunition is well documented. I can see a number of cases with9x19mm where this appears to be true! There are even pieces written asserting that Himmler attempted to build the Nazi Party, particularly the SS, a seperate industrial base for war material that he would controll.

My interest has nothing to do with the morality of the SS or of slave labor. I am, by trade, a Logistician and much of every nations ammunition structure and products are determined by Logistics considerations.

Again, thanks for your corrections on my post above!

Cheers,
Lew

I have some Finnish snow tracers to sell you made by Sasquach… Seriously though, I think a lot of sellers embellish the facts to make sales. This is something we all already know. Talk to Joe Adashunas, he probably has those handstamps for a realistic price.

V/r Henry

Everything that smells to SS (even guessing) these days, is just (again) overrated. Fools with too much money in their pockets screw up our activity.

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Again, I am not looking to buy these, I was just trying to ascertain whether that was an accurate price, or jacked up because of the ‘story’ associated with the headstamp/factory.

Earlier this year I bought two cartridges with the same headstamp, (along with other ammo), from an elder gentleman for $4.00, and if they are worth considerably more, I would like to make good with him, hence my question on a fair price.

Yes, I completely understand sir and my intent was humor more than your inadequacies as a collector believe me! I have learned the hard way myself but guys like you (and others) here have always been gracious in sharing knowledge with me. All in all JP explains best that forced labor was used everywhere in Germany during those times and unless there’s an authentic “SS” stamp on something then it’s not SS…that’s just my two cents!

respectfully, Henry

Boxes with cartridges from lot dou. -St 1 45 until 4 45 are not rare.
Lot 5 ,6 8 are a litle more rare.
A normal price is only between 20 and 30 USD per box. about 100 USD is cracy.

Only dou 45 ammo with tombak bullets is very rare.
But I never seen until now the dou.-St 7 45 and the dou .-St 9 45.These are absolut raritys.
The SS has nothing to do withe S&B and dou.Both factories sold their cartridges to the OKH or the Reichsminister für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion.
The SS gets there ammo from the OKH.





Preis für dou Patr 43 14..3..45
S& B had no slaves they had there own worker .They get new workers from the jobcentre-employment office “Arbeitsamt”.



Prüfbericht 22.3

Norbert

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No offense taken, (if there were, my reply would be much different :wink: ).

I just do not want to cheat a nice guy out of $ for ammo, or cheat myself for that matter… as I have done to myself several times.

“Wow, that is cool, I will take it!”, kicks in much too quickly, and much more often than I usually admit to!

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My father, his father, and several uncles on both sides of the family, (mothers family is Jewish, Fathers family is Southern Baptist), fought in WWII, one uncle in the Pacific, all others in Europe.
My fathers brother was captured, fortunately quite near the end of the war and did not spend much time in a POW camp. Unfortunately he suffered a severe stroke when I was a wee lad and I was never able to ask him about his experiences, and their Dad also died when I was very young- I have no memories of him other than an insistence that I ALWAYS carry a knife, or two,“A gentleman always carries a knife…”.

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Norbert, much thanks!

I will take me a while [plus some!] to go through those documents, my brain no longer does foreign languages well… heck, sometimes my native American gets difficult! :grimacing:

A perfect example of the “Everyone was guilty” concept is the story of Oskar Schindler and his metal-ware factory. He didn’t manufacture weapons (at least not in the beginning) and he was not a part of an SS organization.

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This bit on Albert Göring is worth reading.

Cheers,
Lew

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Fascinating, thank you. I hadn’t heard this story before…not to mention Heydrich’s brother.

On Schindler, who I believe was not globally recognized untill the 1980s’:
“He died on 9 October 1974 in Hildesheim, Germany, and was buried in Jerusalem on Mount Zion, the only former member of the Nazi Party to be honoured in this way. He and his wife Emilie were named Righteous Among the Nations by the Israeli government in 1993.”

I wonder how many thousands of people aided the Jews, not only in and near German, but in every other country where the Nazi Party held sway?