7,9x57 German blank


#1

I have this German 7,9 box and want to know what is the meaning of ( Sorta 1 )
at the right on top of the box
headstamp bne Ixbd1 2 40

thanks
gyrojet


#2

Gyrojet - very, very nice box and headstamp. It is very scarce, and only reported as platzpatronen in any records I have. “Sorte 1” usually would be associated with the first reloading of a case, but with the millions of rejected steel cases the Germans had, it could take on more of a meaning as “Grade I” cases suitable for reloading as blanks. While some steel cases are found with the Sorte knurled ring on them, it was not used on steel cases as much as on brass, and it does not appear your rounds have one. I suspect that loading the steel cases as blanks more than once was probably not done much, but that is just conjecture on my part.

One way to tell if they have been reloaded form ball rounds would be if there are any primer crimps visible. I could not positively tell that from the picture. Remnant crimps would indicate the rounds were probably reloads of fired cases, although they could be loads on cases rejected after priming as well. Blanks made on new cases intended to be loaded as blanks, or on cases rejected before the priming and staking procedure, do not generally have primer crimps.

Very nice find.


#3

Very nice box.

2 x reloaded… Sorte 2


#4

very humbling as I admit I would not know this box as “nice” or “very nice”, or “very,very nice” if it dropped in my lap…I would pass it by as common every time…thus exposing my ignornace to someone in the know !

how many “zillions” of items have passed thru our hands (headstamps, boxes, prototypes)…or shall I say “my hands” without a clue of their rariety ?

so goes our hobby…how “cool” is the Forum to share such items at the touch of a button…worldwide…and in color !

Pepper


#5

May someone enlighten me about the old German script type (Dutch’s box is a good example), when it was used and why it was discontinued? I see various WWII documents written in both types. What rule or law made people write in a particular type?


#6

More cultural inertia than anything else; the old-style writing (called “Fraktur”) was used in Germany from the Middle Ages up until about the middle of WW2 (maybe they thought that it was going to be too difficult to teach to the "conquered masses they were expecting?)

Edit: I just found a page showing that, although the Nazis originally favoured Fraktur as a “pure” Germanic script, Hitler himself hated it, and in 1941, Martin Bormann issued a decree saying that it was to be phased out in favour of modern printing ( home.arcor.de/lutz.schweizer/schrifterlass.html )


#7

Very interesting. The German red plastic dummies in 9x19 produced during the war show an interesting pattern. The headstamps on all those made from 1940 through 1942 have serif letters. The few made in 1944 and 1945 do not have serif letters. The dummies dated 1943 (only known with ay, lpk and nts headstamps) all occur with both serif and non-serif letters. It is clear that sometime in 1943, direction went out to quit using serifs on the headstamps, at least for 9x19 dummies.

Does this pattern occur on 7.92x57mm dummies???

I wonder if this change was related to Bormann’s 1941 direction. Seems like a long time from 1941 to 1943 for the direction to get down to the makers of red plastic dummies, but after spending almost half a century in, and near another military I can see where the direction so earth shaking and important could take two years to flow down.


#8

Gyrojet
As John and Dutch have already stated, great box. I have a scan of that label but I didn


#9

The case with three Sorte rings looks to me more like an error than anything else. The fact that two of the three rings are much lighter and the top ring is the lightest leads me to think that the tool that makes these marks “skipped” out of place and made extra marks.

Also, is it common to find reloaded cases all with the same headstamp or mixed headstamps in the same box? Was there a procedure to keep all the same lot of ammunition together from firing to reloading? I always assumed that the fired cases were just “range pickups” and could be of any material or headstamp. Are brass and steel cases known to be mixed together in the same “sorte”?

AKMS


#10

I have never seen any box of German PP33 that still was obviously with its original contents where the case materials were mixed. However, boxes with mixed headstamps, but all the same case material, are common. They are also found often with all the same headstamp and mixed lot numbers. I think boxes with all the the same headstamp including the same lot numbers may be the scarcest way these come, although I have seen them that way also. That is why I questioned whether or not this box has arounds that had primer crimps. From the picture, I can’t tell if they are CWS or BWS, or gray-green lacquered steel. They were lacquered, according to the box label, but there are copper-washed rounds that have lacquered cases as well.

If the cases never had any primer crimps, it is possible that they were loaded originally as blanks on one lot of rejected cases, and that in this case, the Sorte 1 refers to it being the first loading or that the cases are grade 1 (in reject cases, that would probably mean cases with very minor defects). The word “Sorte” actually means “quality” or “grade” among other things. I am not aware of any meaning of the word itself directly related to reloading, although I am poor in German and it may carry exactly that connotation in relation to ammunition. It would be for Dutch or someone else fluent in German to tell us that.


#11

When steel cases were reloaded, were they simply cleaned and the original finish left on or completely stripped and re-finished? I would expect steel to have been rusty on the inside a long time before it got back to the factory.


#12

Thanks friends for the response !!!

regards
gyrojet


#13

[quote=“AKMS”]The case with three Sorte rings looks to me more like an error than anything else. The fact that two of the three rings are much lighter and the top ring is the lightest leads me to think that the tool that makes these marks “skipped” out of place and made extra marks.

Also, is it common to find reloaded cases all with the same headstamp or mixed headstamps in the same box? Was there a procedure to keep all the same lot of ammunition together from firing to reloading? I always assumed that the fired cases were just “range pickups” and could be of any material or headstamp. Are brass and steel cases known to be mixed together in the same “sorte”?

AKMS[/quote]

This is not correct.

The Platzpatrone 33 Sorte 3 pbutler picture shows is correct.

The case is from 1929 and I think it was made as a ball round, (Primer crimps) and reloaded 3 times as a Platzpatrone.

I also never see a label written on it, but on official papers is written that Platzspatronen could be reloaded 5 times.

btw.
Brass and steel cases were never mixed in a box.


#14

Does anyone know the answer to my question on whether or not steel cases were re-finished before reloading as blanks?


#15

Falcon, sorry I was reading too fast.

The empty cases came from manoeuvres, shooting ranges etc.
Don


#16

Falcon
I am not too sure what you are referring to when you say re-finished, but a great deal of the C/W steel cases that were reloaded as blanks will be found with a clear (transparent) lacquer coating that was not on the original loadings. This is not to say that all original loadings of cartridges with C/W steel cases did not have the lacquer coating, many did.


#17

I meant was the copper plating on the cases stripped off, or were the cases just cleaned and re-used as is?

Thanks for the photos Dutch.


#18

HERE ARE THE ONLY PHOTOS I HAVE SEEN OF LOADING THE 7.9 BLANK INTO THE PANZER FAUST. THEY ARE FROM A FILM, SO NOT SO CLEAR. ANY IDEA WHICH BLANK WAS USED ?


#19

So far German documents were only mentioning regular 7.9mm blanks.


#20

GIVEN THE NUMEROUS TYPES OF 7.9 PROPELLING BLANKS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME THIS SEEMS STRANGE.