I am try to find out which factory made a 7*57 rimless head stamp LDP * 1935 *
Cannot confirm for sure but could well be : Louis Dieu, N
I did make a mistake as i did not have it in from of me it has the date 93 not 1935.
John, I think you may have made the same mistake that I did when I first saw these hs. The 8x57J Mauser and 9x57 Mauser actually have a "L.D.P * 88 * " hs where “88” means the use of the “M88” Mauser case type not the date “1888”.
Similarly, as in your case, there is a "LDP * 93 * " on 7x57 Mauser M93 indicating “M93” Mauser case type not 1893. Remember the 8mm mauser and 7mm mauser cases are slightly differant in diameter.
The ealiest reference to Louis Dieu that I have is a trademark registration in 1911 and I believe they lasted thru to WW2.
A scarce item none-the-less…
I can confirm that LDP is for Ets LOUIS DIEU, PARIS.
This was a french firm importing ammo from several places like Belgium or Germany, before WW I and maybe after, until the late 20ies, or early 30ies. Some of this rounds had the LDP hstp (with stars or not), other only the original one.
Thie firm is also known by an SFM drawing speaking about an order for “Louis Dieu, Paris”.
By the way, a somehow funny point, I saw years ago a box of 7,65 Browning ammo from FN, sold by Louis Dieu, and labelled for a pistol called “DEMON” !!! (“Dieu” means “God”, for the non-speaking collegues…)…Interesting , no?!
Brad and Philippe are correct about this headstamp, of course. I can confirm the headstamp-trademark registration, as I have a copy of the document also.
The “date” is the Model date of the firearm, as they said.
This headstamp is also found on the 7.63 x 25m/m Mauser pistol cartridge, but without any “date.” The basic headstamp is " * L.D.P. * " in a trinomial pattern. I have it with six-pointed stars in two letter sizes, and with eight-pointed “asterisks” as well. On all of mine, the bullets are CNCS FMJ RN in brass cases with brass Berdan primer cups. The bullets are held in all three specimens by three stab-type neck crimps.
I have an M’93 type cartridge clip marked ‘LDP’ which has baffled me for a while. Apart from the marking the clip is a generic M’93 with nothing remarkable about it.
Might this be the clip that matches their 7x57 production?
Happy collecting, Peter
Brad - do you have a photo of the 7.63m/m Mauser cartridge with “LD & Cie” headstamp? I have never heard of it before.
John, I have checked thru my references and find I got that info from Peter Petrusic in his first list of 2006. Here is what he said about some DWM 8x60S cartridges loaded for Louis Dieu:
“Ball, cncs softnose apitzer, (QDWMQ/542/8x60) scarce, cases made by DWM and loaded by their french dependance at Paris by LD&Cie. The LD&Cie headstamp you can find on 7,63 Mauser. So most propably, they are made by DWM, scarce box and 3 part headstamp.”
I can see now that he meant that LD&Cie have their hs on 7.63mm Mauser but not the actual hs of “LD&Cie” - ie it is most likely that it will be the "L.D.P. * * " as is well known.
Sorry for being misleading and giving the (false) hope of a new unknown 7.63 hs but at least we have sorted it out. I have updated my notes.
Brad - Great! Thanks for ironing that out. Information gathering is a process that we all go through, and the Forum is wonderful because we can do it together and sift the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. I thought I knew something aobut auto pistol rounds before this Forum started. I didn’t! Now I do, thanks to all the participants. Plus, my general knowledge, which was alway weak, has gone up twenty-fold.
I’m still an opinionated SOB, but I fear nothing will change that at my age.
Headstamp L.D.P is made of Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz Karlsruhe from - until 1878 - 1896
Ohms - I am sorry, but I do not think that your identification is correct. In 1878 the name of the factory you mention was just as you spelled it - Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe (Baden). Therefore, the initials for such a headstamp would have been DML, not LDP.
Some years ago, the headstamp was identified as being from “Lorenz Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik,” which gives the initials “LDP.” the problem is, that was not the name of the factory. I believe that someone trying to identify the headstamp, on calibers usually found in that era from Germany, simply rearranged the name to suit the initials - unfortunately, something that we could do all the time with headstamps and that would seldom, if ever, yield a correct answer. I think later someone recognizing that the name was wrong changed it in some sources to reflect the correct name of “Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz,” without taking into account that it now no longer matched the headstamp initials.
Further, since we know that the cartridges were all made after 1888, since the model numbers of at least “88” and “93” exist, as well as the 7.63 Mauser round which even in the Borchardt form does not appear until 1893 (and 1896 in the Muaser form), the name is impossible anyway. By 1889 the name of the German factory was changed to simply “Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik” with the name “Lorenz” removed and by 1896 it has become the Detusche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken A.-G.
I have a copy of the Trademark register that clearly shows not only the name and initials of L.D.P. (Luis Dieux, Paris), but even has a drawing of the basic L.D.P. * * * headstamp.
While I agree that the ammunition may well have been made by DWM, it is likely that it was made after the turn of the 20th Century. I believe that the correct headstamp identification is that of Louis Dieux, Paris, in my opinion with no doubt.
At any rate, simply for the time in which it was made we cannot ascribe the Name Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz to these cartridges with any accuracy, regardless that the DML eventually became DWM who might well have made them.
Reference: Catalog I, Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, May 1878
Catalog 2A, Deutsche Metall-Patronen-Fabrik Karsruhe, undated but between 1889 and 1896.
Handbuch der Pistolen- und Revolver Patronen, Band I, by Erlmeier & Brandt, pages 254-256.
Marques de Fabrique et du Commerce, 1880, entry Bruxelles, No. 16137 dated 28 decembre 1911, issued to Lous Dieu, Negociant, 40 Rue Meslay, Paris, France
Note that the last reference may give us a time frame for when these cartridges were actually made - probably in the few years leading up to WWI.