8 mm nambu faked?


#1

Could you help me to understand if this cases is an original Japanese one or if it is faked?
Rim diam.: .419"
Base diam.: .419"
Case lenght: .850"
The primer seems to be boxer type ( one flash hole)

Thank you
Pivi


#2

It does not appear to be an original Japanese cartridge, but I’m not sure I would call it a “fake”. Many people have Nambu pistols they like to shoot, and original reliable ammo is near impossible to find. Eight mm Nambu ammunition is commonly made from reworked brass for shooters, but never really seen on the collector market as anything other than reformed shooter ammo.


#3

I have already seen 8 mm rounds made from reworked 40 S&W cases.but I have never seen those ones without the original headstamp.Maybe it is a case made by some factory that makes and sells new drawn cases for shooters who have guns chambered for obsolete cartridges.For example I have seen some Horneber made cases that were without any kind of headstamp

It would be called “fake” if someone reworked a 40 S&W case erasing the original headstamp and then sold it as an original Japanese cartridge

Pivi


#4

Think I have see this round with a


#5

Yes, Midway offered both empty brass and loaded rounds in the mid-1980’s.


#6

Didn’t they have the Midway headstamps?


#7

Pivi-- they were headstamped “MIDWAY 8 M.M. NAMBU”.

There are also commercialy made rounds headstamped “NAMBU B MPLS E”. These were made in the 1950’s by Benson & Engstrom Cartridge Co. in Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.


#8

Pivi - there were 8mm Nambu cases turned from brass stock, with no headstamp, and marketed in boxes marked “Hauck.” I had a box years ago of a hundred cases. I can’t tell in your picture if it is one of those, but they were boxer-primed. The machine turning marks are very clear on these cases. There have been other boxer-primed cases made as well, some with headstamps other than what has been mention (HDS - Huntington Die Specialities - made only a couple of hundred miles from where I live; OWS - Old Western Scrounger, etc).

There is nothing fake about your case. It is a purpose-driven production by someone, and in my opinion, just as collectable as any other 8mm nambu case.

John Moss


#9

What are the R A 70 cases???

Ray


#10

Ray - Is that question directed to me? What do you mean by “R A 70” cases? If we are talking about cases originally made as 8mm Nambu and with that headstamp, I haven’t a clue. If you are tlaking about an 8nmm Nambu cartridge of unknown origin and out-of-sorts measurements, it would almost certainly be an 8mm Nambu made from .38 Special brass. this was a very common conversion and just for shootin’ stuff, works well. Lots of lathe work of course. The cases virtually always split almost full length on the first firing, but they don’t hurt anything, and they shoot o.k. Years ago, I shot several hundred rounds of ammo so made by a chap named Spence. No salvage, but I had no malfunctions in a nice type 14, and they hit about where you aimed.

If that is not what you are talking about, you will have to make the question a little less cryptic.

Pivi - I wouldn’t even rate the hypothetical example of someone making a boxer primed case of one caliber into an 8mm Nambu a fake! Original 8mm Nambu is not boxer primed, and anyone interested enough to buy a cartridge for a collection would probably know that. I would simply rate the guy who made it as being too dumb to make a good fake, and a liar for saying it was original Japanese. I know there is a fine line for collectors between cartridges made from others for the purpose of shooting and a
fake, but that line is there and the instance you describe to me would not constitute a fake cartridge, but rather just an attempt at fraud by the seller, just as if I tried to sell you some nromal cartridge and told you it was a rare experimental. It is not the cartridge that is the fake, but the seller that is a liar. Real fake cartridges are usually made as close to originals as the skills of the faker allow, in a real attempt to deceive. Again, its a fine line, I know.


#11

Well,the person who gave me this case didn’t tell me it was a japanese one and I read that nambu cases were berdan primed.I was in doubt because it is clearly a drawn case,not turned from solid brass but the only commercial production I knew for this caliber was the one offered by Midway.I saw this american made cases and all had the Midway headstamp.


#12

Pivi-All the original Japanese made 8 mm NAMBU TYPE 14 rounds I have seen always have 3-stab bullet crimps and either flat or domed brass primers which are normally lacquered with a brown lacquer. The bullets may be found in both cupro-nickel and gilding metal.


#13

I have a question about the B & E headstamp. My notes list this as Bard & Engebrit of Minneapolis. Steinhauer’s web page says that B&E was created by Robert Bard and Osborne Klavestad of Minneapolis. Who are Benson and Engstrom?


#14

John

I was asking for anyone who knew the answer and you are obviously that guy. I never thought about the case being made from a 38 Special. That would be heck-of-a-lot of work to make one case. But, I suppose if you had a pistol and no ammo you’d do whatever had to be done.

I’ll have dig that case out and take a better look at it. I always assumed it was simply one made by Remington, for whatever reason.

Thanks John.

Ray


#15

Thanks to all,
These informations and the other ones that I receive in this forum are very precious to me
Pivi


#16

JCP–My identification of the B & E 8mm Nambu came from “The Cartridge Guide” by Ian Hogg. It is the only identification I have heard for B&E. I have not seen the ID you provided before. Does anyone have a box or other source that will clear this up?


#17

Frank Clickner in the International Cartridge Collectors Association’s, The Cartridge Trader, January, 1961 issue supplied the following information: "the company name was Bart and Engebrit Cartridge Co. The cases were turned from solid bronze stock and loaded with a solid copper bullet of 95 grains. The powder used was DuPont #5066.


#18

JCP - I have never heard of “Benson & Engstrom.” The best information I have found on the B & E Cartridge company is that it was a company named for Mssrs Bard & Engabrit, the makers of the 8mm ammunition in question, in Minneapolis, Minnesota. This is according to an interview with Osborne Klavestad, who was the sole distributor for this ammo, and was located in Shakopee, Minnesota. The cartridge cases were described as being turned from solid bronze stock (mentioned as bronze once, but later mentioned as brass, which I think is correct) instead of being drawn. The bullet is described as being swaged from solid copper. However, I have these rounds in my collection, and I took a dupe some time ago and cut into the bullet, and the bullet in that one was copper-washed lead, very much like some .22 bullets. I have never seen one with a solid bronze bullet, but it is poosible that at some time duirng there production they were made that way. The cartridges were loaded with Dupont Pistol Powder No.5066 to a velocity of 1000 fps, and primed with Western 1-1/2 primers (small pistol).

In 1954, the date of the article in the “American Rifleman” Magazine, the price of a box of 50 cartridges was $6.50. That was expensive in 1954, when I was paying 25 cents a box for Winchester .22 Short ammunition for my Model 1890 Winchester. According to the article, they were first marketed in 1948. Among the prominent sellers were Philip Medicus and Hudson Sporting Goods, located in New York City.

I hope this is of some help to you.


#19

Pivi - there are several 8mm Nambu cases with no headstamp, not of Japanese manufacture. Some were made in Thailand, and appear from the primer in the one in my collection to be Boxer-type. However, the rim is much thinner than the one on yours, and the extractor groove and bevel are different.

I am inclined to thinK that yours is a case made by Megret, in France. The thicker rim, only slightly beveled on the edge, and the extractor groove and extractor-groove bevel. look much like my round from Megret. Mine is loaded with a nickeled-cup boxer primer, and a FMJ GM bullet of proper diameter and ogive.

By the way, to the list of 8mm Nambu with a headstamp you can add FC 8MM NAMBU, made for, but never marketed by Federal. I think they sold the cases to Midway Arms, who had them loaded and sold them under their own name. I am not sure of that. They might also have been loaded for Old Western Scrounger. Also Bertram Cartridge Company of Australia made headstamped cases, complete with two little Kangeroos on the headstamp.
Qual-Cart also made headstamped cartridges and A-Zoom made dummy snap-cap rounds of solid aluminum anodized dark purple, with their headstamp. I also have one of unknown manufacture headstamped simply “8MM NAMBU” across the top, from about the 10 O’Clock position to the 2 O’Clock position.

A very rare unheadstamped round was made by the Standard Cartridge Company, of Pasadena, California, in the mid-1940s, but never marketed. I have one in my collection, and while I am sure others do also, I have not seen one other than mine. I think the rim on yours is too thick, again, to be the SCC Production, however.

Regarding the reference in Hogg’s book about B & E, I am reluctant to say, but feel obliged to, that I have never found Hogg’s books to be completely reliable sources of information, and I use them only for comparison and corroboration of other works. If there is a discrepancy between other works and his, I admittedly automatically assume his is in error. I am sorry to report that, but it is simply an observation after many, many years of reading literature from that source, and then finding later, or knowing as I read it, that it was incorrect. That doesn’t mean that his works have no value in a library - all of us who write make errors. In the case of identifying B & E, I trust the N.R.A. in a direct interview with the distributor to be the accurate source.