88mm shell case length - 88 X ?R


#1
  • What is the length of the 88mm (8.8 cm) shell case used by the German 88mm anti-aircraft (and also anti-tank) gun during the WW2 years ??? I assume that the 88mm shell case is rimmed. 88 X ?R Thanks in advance for any help, Liviu 04/05/11

#2

There’s the 88x571R L/56 Flak, AT and Tiger 1, and than there’s the 88x882R L/71, and Tiger 2


Numbers 3 & 4 from the left


#3
  • @ Tailgunner: Thank you! Is it possible for you to post a clear image of their headstamp markings ??? Thanks, Liviu 04/05/11

#4

I can make an attempt, over the weekend.
My collection and I are 170 miles apart at the moment.


#5

While we’re on the topic of German 88s, was there ever a WWII version of a German 77?

Bogart’s line from Casablanca:
Ilsa: "Was that cannon fire, or is it my heart pounding?"
Rick: “Ah, that’s the new German 77. And judging by the sound, only about thirty-five miles away.”

I always thought this was a mistake in the script, and that it should have been “German 88.” But was it?


#6

No 77mm in WWII. By then all guns in 77mm (FK 16) in question got converted to 75mm “FK 16 n.A.” (during the 1930’s).

Never trust TV or ordinary publications.


#7

While it’s an error from the standpoint of ordnance, Rick’s (that is, Bogart’s) remark rings true for an American of his generation. A 40-year-old American who’d served in the Great War (as Bogart had) probably would have thought the Germans had 77’s on the outskirts of Paris in the spring of 1940. Jack


#8

That brings it all together. As the nA essentially means “New Model”, the FK 16 nA (in 7.5cm) is in fact a new model, or new modification, of the old FK16 in 7.7cm. Therefore Rick could well have been correct in his referring to a “new German 77,” as that’s exactly what the FK 16nA was at the time, but in a slightly smaller caliber. I hadn’t thought of it that way before, as I was thinking only of the WWI 7.7cm. I have no idea if the FK 16 nA played a part in the 1940 fall of France, but it sure could have. How could I have doubted Bogie?


#9

Some further info:

The L56 case measured 88x571R with a rim diameter of 111mm. It came in two incompatible flavours: percussion primed for AA and electric primed for AFV.

The L71 case came in two sizes:
88x855R (123mm rim) for the AA gun round,
88x822R (146mm rim) for the AFV gun round.

For the sake of completeness, there was also a submarine 88mm in service in WW2 (the SK C/45) with a case measuring 88x390R (rim 112mm).

You can find all of these listed in the Ammunition Data Tables on my website: quarry.nildram.co.uk/ammotables.htm


#10
  • @ Tailgunner: Thanks, there is no rush, you can do it when you have time. Liviu 04/06/11

#11

Liviu
Sorry, but the bases are to eroded for clear photographs.
I was able to see (magnification and sidelight) the following on the x571 case
(12, 9, 3, 6)
BZS- ? (looks like a 6, but can’t be sure)
aue
41
and at 6 o:clock (2 lines)
6347
8.8cm


#12

[quote=“Tailgunner”]Liviu
Sorry, but the bases are to eroded for clear photographs.
I was able to see (magnification and sidelight) the following on the x571 case
(12, 9, 3, 6)
BZS- ? (looks like a 6, but can’t be sure)
aue
41
and at 6 o:clock (2 lines)
6347
8.8cm[/quote]

  • @ Tailgunner: Thank you! What about the primer, is it the version with wrench flats and for percussion ??? Any markings on the primer ??? Thanks again, Liviu 04/11/11

#13

I didn’t record the primer numbers when I was home, sorry. IIRC all of my German primers have the wrench flats on them
This case has the electric primer in it, but I also have a “spare set” of both percussion and electric primers (one of which is in my 75x495R case, headstamp “aux 44 3339ST”).

If you want, I can pull the primer numbers for you next weekend


#14

[quote=“Tailgunner”]I didn’t record the primer numbers when I was home, sorry. IIRC all of my German primers have the wrench flats on them
This case has the electric primer in it, but I also have a “spare set” of both percussion and electric primers (one of which is in my 75x495R case, headstamp “aux 44 3339ST”).

If you want, I can pull the primer numbers for you next weekend[/quote]

  • @ Tailgunner: Yes, if it isn’t too much trouble, please do it. Thanks, Liviu 04/12/11

#15

Electric #1
P4 735 (This one is in my 88x822R)

Electric#2
DWM C/22ST 1944 686

Percussion #1
C/12 oASL wb 41 184 (this one is in my 88x571)

Percussion #2
This one is to rusted to read anything, but it appears to have a brass ring between the steel “holder” and the primer itself. Re-primed?

One question for the experts, could the primers have been field/depot changed/installed? As they are the same size and screw into a cavity in the base of the case (the case has a secondary flash hole in it) this would have eased logistics in the supply chain.


#16

The second most common question asked of me at gun shows over the years was; do you have any 88s? The first was “what is this thing”.

Most people do not know that 88 is a caliber not a case type and that there are many case types from WW1 through WW2 used on land , over and under the sea ( ships and subs) and in the air as well. The case types range from the short case sub deck guns to the long and slender late model FLAK cases.


#17

Not to forget even recoilless ones.


#18

Yes,thank you. I did forget that.


#19

DrSchmittCSAEOD–As you have stated, there are a number of different 8.8cm case types. Any chance you could put together a list of all the different types with their uses to help sort them all out?


#20

Ron, the ninth post on page 1 of this thread gives you a starting point.