8mm Lebel

This is one I am struggling to id… maker is AS but might have a broken bunter so could be PAS. however that was written in lower case (pas). The metal supplier LA I cant find anything on them. They are not in Lebel book by Jean Huon. So any help welcome…paul.8mm Lebel

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This one was made in Toulouse under german control during ww2

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Laurent, should it be pas in lower case lettering, who would LA be as the metal supplier…paul.

I found something under the heading ASI.It says the fowlloing
Unknown French military of 1914-1918 period.Does not follow
the standart French pattern of marking.Two suggestions have
been put forward,Atelier de Service de Lorient,Or Aerators LTD
of London.


LA= maybe,???Atelier Lorient???

I have in my list for LA = Les Aciers fins de la Loire, á Saint Etienne

Source: The old histavia21 Site (it was documented there, but the site is no longer existing, a real pitty), as he has given to all makers and founisseurs the source for his writings…
I have 10 pages of Makers, 1 page of metal-deliverer, 1 page of pouderies (powdermakers or source of)


edited, to correct misspelling of the departement, its not Lóise, but Loire

A list I have, obviously from a French source as everything is in French, and I am speaking of everything other than just the list. The only clue I have to source is the web address, which is: http://forest.frenchboard.com/t391-abreviation-munitions-francaises.

On that list, which is 9-3/4 pages long, “LA” is shown as “Société des Aciers fins de la Loire Four St Etienne.”

Since I don’t read French well enough to translate that name, I cannot tell if it makes any sense in regard to a case-metal supplier, or not.

John Moss

as this people in your list , have put everything together (from Powdermakers, to Metall-deliverer, Casemakers), the different “things”, like Metalldeliverer = Fournisseur de Metaux, the FOUR in your adress, is just a note, that the name belongs to a Metall-Deliverer…it is not part of the Name…just for the records…
An this list are still some errors, as he has AEG in its makers for ammo…I do not knew, french ammo made by AEG…

anyway, the abbreviations are in the beginning of that list:
Vérif =Atelier de précision (means, has to be verified, not sure)
Fab =Fabricant de la munition (its a maker of ammunition)
Four =Fournisseur du métal (its the maker/deliverer of the case metall
C =Cartoucherie (its also Cartridge factory, maybe only loading plant, as we have already the above ammunitionmaker)
P = Poudrerie (the powdermaker)


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So, it seems that it is possible that the identification is correct, since “LA” is identified as a case-metal supplier. Since the list I used seems to have other errors, I guess it could only be called a tentative identification, though.

Thanks, Peter.

Hope all is well with you and yours.


Thank you to all who answered, Peter (Forensic), do you think the PAS should be in lower case letters? …paul.

this is a case made by ASL during WW1. All the cartridge with this headstamps are loading with ASL stamped " type D" bullet. This headstamp is known from 4-16 thru 4-17 ( on french style case Dam). Till know it is not known why the use of LA.

domi… if you look at the stamping above the A there is a mark which might have been another letter. There is nothing below the letter S. (if there was a letter below that would misaligne the headstamp) Also the year stamp is not clear. So are you saying that this headstamp was in use for one year only if so that would date the cartridge to 3 quarter 1917… do I understand you right? thank you paul

Yes what is above the A is another letter,and i think it is an I the later Lebel
rounds that I posses,match that I as shown on that round so that should make it
I A S.The info that I gave comes out of the Cartridge guide by Hogg and LA shown
could easely stand for Atelier Lorient.Also the info states UNKNOWN FRENCH MILITARY
from 1917-1918 can have very poor stamping and match well with the stamp shown,in
particular that I Sherryl


do you have proof for your saying, its PARIS?
And if, what factory shouldt be??

All other french documants gives the follow:

oyj Atelier de construction de Tarbes sous l’occupation allemande entre 1940 et 1944
pas Cartoucherie de Toulouse sous l’occupation allemande entre 1940 et 1944

Thats why i question the answer pas = Paris

The dates given above for oyj and pas cannot be correct, as they where in this timeframe til mid november 1942 still in the “free Zone” of Vichy Frankreich…Germany occupied this zone than from Mid November 42, so OYJ and pas or Pas headstamps are found from 1943 onwards in brass and steel cases…

If pas was, as you state, PARIS, than I would expect normally, that we must have found headstamps starting with 1940 (occupation of Paris), which is NOT the case…
In any case, you have proof for your statement PAS = Paris, I am very happy to see that…

Hello Peter,
Sorry for the misinformation, I was far from my library and I answered too fast to the question and brainstormed everybody. Pas is in fact as other members said for Toulouse. One more time sorry for the confusion I created!
Ps: i have edited my first post to avoid confusion for later…

as I wrote in a question for Laurent, pas was only used earlist in Nov 1942…so your brass case, cannot be from PAS, ( with big or lower case letters).

PAS has not used ANY Metallsupplier in their headstamp, it was only Ms for Messing or St for Steel…
So the cartridge with the incomplet markings you have shown cannot be pas…

I think, the spotty marking above the AS is an artefact from bad stamping, than the headstamp reads not pas, nor ASI, but just AS as the maker/fabricant and LA as the metalfournisseur, which than solves the problem…
as AS is: Compagnie des mines, Fonderies et forges d ´Alès (before 1921 the name was written Alais)
and the LA-explanation was already made before here: Les Aciers fins de la Loire a Saint Etienne…


John, rough translation of Société des Aciers fins de la Loire Four St Etienne: Society of Fine Steels of the Loire Four St Etienne

I am not certain about the word “Four”… which could mean oven, stove, furnace, or kiln, which makes sense for a metal production facility.


as I wrote above, the FOUR in that line is NOT PART of the name, but the explanation from the maker of this whole list, that this entry is for a “Four…nisseur”, which means, the delivery factory of the metall iself …

maybe you havent seen it, or have not read the complete answer to John…there was the follwing statement:
anyway, the abbreviations are in the beginning of that list:
Vérif =Atelier de précision (means, has to be verified, not sure)
Fab =Fabricant de la munition (its a maker of ammunition)
Four =Fournisseur du métal (its the maker/deliverer of the case metall
C =Cartoucherie (its also Cartridge factory, maybe only loading plant, as we have already the above ammunitionmaker)
P = Poudrerie (the powdermaker)

have fun…

And here a list,separated in all the different “parties”, means a list for the casemakers, the Metallsuppliers, the powdersuppliers a.s.o.
Attention, the list has the same misspelling of metallsupplier LA, as
Société des Aciers fins de la Loise St Etienne, instead of correct:
Société des Aciers fins de la Loire St Etienne,

which shows, that copy and paste is not always good, without use of the brain :-)

L´oise would be about 700km away from the Loire…
Here you can look it up, a little bit better (except that one miss-spelling):


Peter - the list I used has the name “Loire” spelled correctly.


yes, I knew, but all other french lists have that misleading spelling…that I would mention…
As you can see in the list, i gave at the end of my text above…
Its a little bit better organised, as it has no such words in it, (like FOUR/ P/ C as.) but has directly separated the abbreviations in makers, loaders, Metallsuppliers, Powdermakers a.s.o.
Even in that list, the word Loire is written Loise…
Its tricky, specially for non french speaking people, to see or hear the difference…

Have a healthy time…