8mm Portuguese (8X60-56R)?

Wanting to confirm that these 3 are 8mm Portuguese (8X60-56R)?
Measurements do not seem to match up.
Bulllet .323, cartridge length 3.22, case length 2.14, .622 rim diameter.
Headstamps are left to right Portugal (A frame with 3 horizontal lines, * 1912 *, 3rd cartridge F.A 1899
IMG_8780

Photo of headstamp would be helpful.

The A with cross bars is actually AE logo " Arsenal do Exercito" ( Army Arsenal)…logo used 1900 circa up-to at least 1937 before use of FCPQ in 1940s.
FA is Fabrica Armas a late 1800s ID.
Cartridges are Cartuchoes a bala 8mm M 899 ( nitrocellulose load, and 56mm Nominal case lenght.)

With Wooden Blank cartridge made from older design cases and new M899 cases so lenght may vary from 56mm to about 59mm ( from my experience dismantling many of these for the cases. Loading of blank is Black Powder about 60 grains with raw cotton fibre wad and hollow wooden bullet (softwood).

Markings found on Blanks can be GR ( Georg. ROTH Austria,)mostly original BP cases, FA, And AE Portuguese made cases, may be new made as Blanks but more likely Recycled Ball ammo.
PORTUGAL did a lot of cartridge recycling for economy.

One Particular: All 8x56/60 R cases are Berdan, Corrosive .250" diameter primers in the Roth Patent Anvil form ( flash hole through Anvil…easily reloadable with correct size decapping pin.)

Doc AV

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Here you go Doc.
IMG_8800
IMG_8801

Notice the difference in case head geometry…the AE case is more like a Mauser A base, the FA is more of a truncated dome shape, both will fit the concave bolt head for proper headspacing.

Doc AV

Doc you say all 8X56/60R would have Berdan primers, which these do not. Are they another cartridge?
Jim C

As Doc already said, they are Portuguese (Arsenal do Exército (AE) and Fábrica de Armas (F.A)). The one that has wooden bullet (simulated bullet or “bala simulada M/89” em Português), also known as “casquinha”. I add photos taken from a book I have on the Kropatschek.
Best regards

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They may look like Boxer from the inside ( single central flash hole,) but they are actually Berdan by G.Roth’s
Patent design, where the anvil in the case has a wedge shaped cut across it leading to a central flash hole.

With the proper sized decapping pin ( about 0.9-1.0 mm) they can be decapped and reloaded, which the Portuguese and others, did regularly for training ammo and for making blanks from fired cases.

The Austrian Roth system was used by Portugal, The Netherlands, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, before WWI, and then also Czecho-Slovakia in the interwar years, and also Poland for 8x50R Austrian during the 1920s. Some lots of Ammo made by Germany in WWI for Austria was also Roth primed.

The unique system disappeared as German type Berdan primers spread into these Various countries either by new modern Ammo machinery, or by German Occupation…eg, Portugal went Two Flash Berdan in 1938( adopted German 7.9mm, and Machinery) and the Czech rump state occupied by Germany 1939 did the same. The others had abandoned Roth system by 1945 for reasons of change of calibre or German invasion etc.

Doc AV.

I assume these were only loaded in blank and ball?

Yes, since they were effectively Obsolete by the early 1900s ( replaced by 6.5x53R and the 6.5x58P), even though Portugal did have some Manual MGs and probably a Maxim in 8x56R, there was no requirement for Tracer or AP in the 90s… so Ball and Blank seem the only cartridges produced.

Doc AV

I think there were dummies produced for a least the 56mm case.

Thanks Doc!

Thanks Pete!

As Pete says, here is a Portuguese dummy with a brass bullet jacket soldered into the case…

Hey guys I am new here. I have over 100 of what I believe are Portuguese 8MM wooden blanks. Each is packaged in a 10 round paper wrapping tied with a string. on the paper reads: Fabrica sa Polvora Fumo next line 10 Cartuchos com bala
Next line Simulada 8MM M/89

Do these have any value? I am assuming they are black power which I am not thrilled with storing if it is 100+ years old. Any info would be great

Here is a dummy 56mm case by Arsenal do Ejercito Lisbon 1928
Sherryl

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Can you post a photo?

Personally, I do not worry about the safety of black powder loads.
Some of us might have dozens, or many more, not to mention the 15 or so pounds of black powder I have for the rifles I shoot!

BadgerJack
Thanks here is a picture. There are no headstamp markings which I thought was odd

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Not quite “blanks” because there is a projectile, but training rounds.
Literal translation:
Polvora Smoke Factory
10 Bullet Cartridges
Simulated 8MM M/89

Jack, not much training here beyond a loud bang and some tiny wood pieces in the air.

I shot quite a few of those back in the mid 1980s’, and not all of the wood bullets fragmented. Many of them stayed largely together and printed on a 12"x12" target at 50 feet. Maybe I should say the “patterned” on the target.