8x50R & 8x56R Clips


#1

Hello all,
I am, once again, digging for information about any and all information about Steyr M90R & M95R en-bloc clips.
If you can contribute any information to the collection please let me know. If you have any head stamps of the ones in the unconfirmed section I hope you’ll be willing to share images of those with me.

Any and all information is appreciated.

Thank you.

Current List:

https://sites.google.com/site/steyrclips/


#2

Also, if anyone can confirm that the head stamps in the Unconfirmed section do exist it would be much appreciated. I’ve lost my notes on which are which. Some of them may be 1mm Werndl manufacturers.


#3

Despite being interested in collecting all manner of clips for nearly 10 years I’ve never seen or heard tell of, the ones in your unconfirmed section. This doesn’t mean that they weren’t made at some point, its just that they’ve not attracted the attention of a collector.

I can add a picture of the ‘P in a circle’ although I have this one filed under ‘unknown’.

There are also the unmarked ‘parallel’ finger grooved clips, these seem to have come in boxes of 8x50 made by SMI in 1940.

Of the ones in your ‘confirmed’ section I’ve never seen or heard tell of those marked C, M, PA, PK, R, RB, X or Z. The ‘X’ marked ones seem to be poorly struck ‘H’ markings.

Happy collecting, Peter

Edited once to make a couple of points clearer


#4

Zeliard –

This is a good summary of these Mannlicher clips. I have just a few corrections to suggest regarding some of the marks and manufacturers, based on the information to be found on this rather complicated subject in Josef Mötz’s Österreichischer Militärpatronen books.

  1. Phil Butler’s photo of the single-headed Republican Eagle in fact shows the second type, in which the eagle carries a hammer and a sickle in its claws, and has a “civic” crown (not clearly seen in the photo) rather like the castellations round the top of a Castle chess-piece. This replaced the first type, which was plain and uncrowned, in 1928, and was used as the Austrian State Emblem until 1934 when it was in its turn replaced by the double-headed, uncrowned, Corporate State Eagle.

As the second type of Republican Eagle was in use from 1928 to 1934, clips with this mark were made by or for Patronenfabrik Lichtenwörth AG, which was the designated State Factory (Staatsfabriken) for small arms ammunition manufacture at the time. This was the name adopted by Georg Roth’s Lichtenwörth plant following the collapse of the Roth empire in 1928. They were taken over by Hirtenberger in 1933.

Hence this clip was not used by Wöllersdorf Munitionsfabrik, which was a government plant situated just outside Wiener Neustadt, about 40km south of Vienna. It ceased producing military ammunition at the end of WW1, and was then privatised as Wöllersdorf Werke AG. It continued to produce some commercial ammunition, including 8mm M.93 Mannlicher, and used the “w-in-W” monogram as its headstamp. I have never seen any reference to a clip bearing the “w-in-W” mark, and I suppose it may have still used the “MF” clip. However, all ammunition manufacture at Wöllersdorf finally ceased in 1925.

  1. Re. the “MF” mark, see the above paragraph, showing that Wöllersdorf ceased manufacturing military cartridges at the end of WW1 and ceased all ammunition production in 1925.

John E


#5

Finally, a P inside circle!

enfield56 do you mind if I add it to the others you’ve graciously donated? :)

That possible X is most likely a mis-struck H. I don’t remember if I’ve ever seen any others like it. I’ll dig through my old notes. If not then I’ll clarify that it is indeed an H.

Many of the unconfirmed are just that, no confirmation if they exist or not. Mostly grasping at straws. For a very few someone said they saw one once, others a company was known to have produced ammunition so might have produced clips, yet others may have been makers of 11mm Werndl and the like and had nothing to do with the 8x50 & 8x56 rifles. I’m hoping someone, someday, might be able to pop up and say “Hey, here’s one of those” or at least give more information. I doubt I’ll ever know the truth about Dr. Kubenick though. That’s only there after being found on a disorganized Hungarian site with weaponry information scattered around the page.

The SMI ones are close to being added to the confirmed section. If I could just find some paperwork or maybe even first hand accounts (along with other statements made already) I’d put those in that section. I’m asking about it on an Italian WW2 forum. As it is I think I’ll wait to see if anything else pops up then put them in the unmarked section.

JJE:

That’s some great info, thanks! Definitely going to hold onto that and edit the text on the page. :)
Hmm, ok, Austrian eagles (singel and double headed) were produced by Patronenfabrik Lichtenwörth AG, formerly Georg Roth’s Lichtenworth plant, from 1928 - 1932. Hirtenberger after 1933, correct? I’ll need to make note of the change of designs through the years and will give them their own sections.

So MF is Wollersdorf, but the absolute latest manufacturing date for any markings of theirs would be 1925, and for military markings it would most likely be 1918. Never heard of a w in W clip either.

Guys, thanks so much for your help! :)


#6

Oh, one more question, please. Is the Scarlata (IIRC) book about Mannlicher Rifles worth getting? Any details/info about the clips?


#7

“La Precisa”: A company in the industrial area south of Naples, which in the 1930s made Table radios, Household Kitchen ( electric) Utensils, and associated small stamped metal parts. The Radios are now a sought after collector’s item.
“La Precisa” is a descriptive term, meaning “The precise one” when referring to its products, ie, made with careful precision.

LP made both 8mm Mannlicher Clips, and 6,5 Carcano clips; it is unknown if they made any 8mm Lebel (Berthier 3 round) Clips, although substantial quantities of Berthiers had been left over from WW I French aid after 1917.
(They were still on sale by Terni Army factory to collectors in the late 1990s)

Any modern (Google) search for “La Precisa” will bring up a Post world War II company, in the north-central area of Italy, completely unrelated to the original LP ( but involved with precision engineering; just not Household items).

Just an expansion of the LP entry.

regards,
Doc AV


#8

Zeliard –

I don’t wish to confuse you, but some further comments may be of interest. In 1926, Georg Roth’s Lichtenwörth plant was the first Staatsfabrik to be approved for small arms ammo manufacture, and it used the 1st Type Republican Eagle on its headstamps. However Mötz makes no mention of this version in his list of clip marks. So either no specimen of this was seen, or perhaps Roth used their “GR” clips for military ammo as well as for any commercial production.

However, Mötz also lists the Type 1 Eagle as a headstamp on 8mm Mannlicher cartridges in 1929 and 1930, after Lichtenwörth Patronenfabrik had become a separate company, and they didn’t use the 2nd type as a headstamp until 1931. Were they any quicker introducing the 2nd type on their clips? I wouldn’t have thought they would have continued using GR ones, but you never know.

And Mötz also lists the 2nd Type Eagle appearing as a headstamp on 8mm Mannlicher in 1933 and 1934, after Hirtenberger had taken over Lichtenwörth and its Staatsfabrik status, so perhaps they used it on their clips before introducing the Corporate State Eagle in 1934-35?

There’s still quite a bit we don’t know about these clips.

John E

(edited once to correct a wrong date)


#9

A user at an Italian WW2 forum gave me the following info:

[quote]La Precisa is the name of factory located in Lazio, near Roma. During ww2 made fuzes, clips etc… after ww2 it continued production including hand grenades.

SMI, società metallurgica italiana. there weere 2 different factories. Fornaci di Barga (Lucca), and Campo Tizzoro (Pistoia).
The marking CT, means Campo Tizzoro. It was an early marking and was often omitted.
best regards[/quote]


#10

Sorry for the name change, I kept forgetting my password and finally just created a new account. ^_^
I’ve been busy trying to get my resume and portfolio updated to apply for a new job but I’ll start collating this information soon.

Thanks all :)


#11

The list has been updated with the new information and new pictures.
Thank you all for your help and please let me know how this one checks out. :)