8x50R Lebel "CP 40 F 1"


#1

I fished it out of a bag of post war Lebels, the only one. How common is 1940? I mostly see post war years at the shows. What is CP? “F” is a cartridge manufacturer, right? “1” is the first quarter of 1940? What happened to Lebel rifles (and ammo) under German occupation?


#2

Part remained with the French Vichy and part was used by the new owners.


#3

8 x 50mmR Lebel under German occupation = histavia21.net/Old-Munavia-2 … lalww2.htm
In French so use an online translator if you are not fluent in French.


#4

I think this cartridge was made by; Société méridionale d’industrie Anciens etablissements Paulet

I don’t think a “F” or “E” exist as a metal supplier.
It could be a B” from; Cie Générale d’electricité Usine de boisthorol (orne)

Rgds


#5

It is a “F”. In 1940, F (Société le Ferro-Nickel) is the metal supplier for CP, and also from 1945 to 1949.

Domi


#6

Merci boncoup, messieurs,
I probably misspoke when I said “cartridge manufacturer”. Would a metal supplier deliver raw metal, like sheets of metal or they deliver a raw un-headstamped un-primed cartridge?


#7

[quote=“domi”]It is a “F”. In 1940, F (Société le Ferro-Nickel) is the metal supplier for CP, and also from 1945 to 1949.

Domi[/quote]

Merci domi,

I love this Forum.

Rgds


#8

I was mistaken by an old listing. The best thing for “F” is “Tréfilerie et Laminoirs de la Méditerranée de Saint-Louis.(anciennement Société Huart et Cie de Marseille)” (from “CULOT DE MUNITIONS” Tome 1 by S.Jorion en P. Regenstreif)

Domi


#9

Some suppliers of Metal simply supplied Sheets already cut to Specification (Rolls, Actually); some also did the initial “Punch and Cup”, and supplied only the Cups (No waste).

1-40 is the First Third of 1940 (January to April) so it was still “France”; German Occupation began in June 1940.

After June 1940, the Factories North of the “Line” (separating Nazi occupied France from Vichy) Mostly ceased production til later years; those in Vichy continued production, not only for Metropolitan France, but also for the French Vichy Colonies Overseas (North Africa, Syria, Lebanon, etc. ( when transport was available)

BY about 1943, Many French Factories had been given “German” Codes, and were producing Steel cased ammo for use in French Arms (known : 8x50R, 7,65 Longue, 13,2 Hotchkiss).

Doc AV


#10

Here is mine, looks like an “F” to me, unless it is was a broken bunter.

joe


#11

[quote=“xjda68”]Here is mine, looks like an “F” to me, unless it is was a broken bunter.

joe
[/quote]
Hi Joe, once and for all it is “F”, as far as I Know there is no “E” in the list of french metal supplier. As I said, “F” was the main metal supplier for CP just before German Occupation and after the war.

[quote=“DocAV”]
BY about 1943, Many French Factories had been given “German” Codes, and were producing Steel cased ammo for use in French Arms (known : 8x50R, 7,65 Longue, 13,2 Hotchkiss).
Doc AV[/quote]
Yes but the factories still used the french code jointly with the German code and may even be mix in the same cartridge headstamp: for example, TE (Toulouse factorie) with “st” (steel case).
And when the full style german code was used, the “lot” number on the headstamp was still the quarter number as french style.


#12

[quote=“DocAV”]
BY about 1943, Many French Factories had been given “German” Codes, and were producing Steel cased ammo for use in French Arms (known : 8x50R, 7,65 Longue, 13,2 Hotchkiss).
Doc AV[/quote]
Yes but the factories still used the french code jointly with the German code and may even be mix in the same cartridge headstamp: for example, TE (Toulouse factorie) with “st” (steel case).
And when the full style german code was used, the “lot” number on the headstamp was still the quarter number as french style.[/quote]

Like this,

Added better picture.


#13

Yes that is what I call “German full code style”.

Here is what i call "a mix " one:

You can see more information here:
http://www.histavia21.net/Old-Munavia-21org/lebeloccup/occuTOULOUSE.htm

Domi


#14

[quote=“DocAV”]
BY about 1943, Many French Factories had been given “German” Codes, and were producing Steel cased ammo for use in French Arms (known : 8x50R, 7,65 Longue, 13,2 Hotchkiss).

Doc AV[/quote]

I’ve never seen a 7,65x20 with a German code and I’m not sure there are any (known production under German occupation: AVE 1943 , ATS 1943 and ATS 1944).
But there had production of 7,65 x17 (32ACP) with the German code (at least: oyj 1944, steel case and bullet).

Domi


#15

I have seen a box of 7.65x20 with full German labeling which were made in France under occupation. Unfortunately I do not remember the headstamp.


#16

Like this one:

Made by oyj (ATS) in 1944 with cases from “AVE” (VE 1943)


#17

The one I saw had a “standard” German label for steel cases with the blue band and with all machine printed font.


#18

The headstamp “O Y J 1 9 4 4” appears on the 7.65 French Long cartridge for sure. I have it in my own collection. The headstamping is not a first rate job, but is obviously original. There are three square primer crimps and one of them falls right on top of the “J.” If you did not know what the code was, you would not be able to interprete the last letter, “J.” For some reason, I found I have two in my collection, and on neither is the “J” legible due to the primer crimp. I have not seen the label for this particular round. It is steel-case, with blackened bullet and brass primer. It has a knurled case cannelure, but does not have any colored-lacquer primer or case-mouth seals. They were unknown until only about eight years ago, at least in the USA.

The label shown would be for rounds with a VE headstamp. I have “VE 1942” in my own collection, as well as with a “45” date and at least one post-war date. I don’t collect dates for themselves, so the cartridges I have would have some other physical variation of some sort, and I do save those, even very minor ones, if I believe they represent a different specification.


#19

Thank you John, this is the first one I hear about in 7,65 long.

Domi


#20

Hello,
I found this cartridge . It seems to me like it says 43 which is inconsistent with occupation period. I can’t take the whole round out because it inserted in the center of the artillery shell which is a beer mug LOL Thoughts?