8x50R Lebel question


#1

Municion.org says that ART. D= Ver anteriores. What is Ver anteriores?


#2

“Ver” is the verb “to see” and "anteriores is “previous” or “the previous ones”. Don’t know the context because I didn’t look up the site, but I would read it as “see the previous ones” (or perhaps in English “the previous entries” depending on the context).

a little out of my field, but I believe the “Art. D” on this headstamp refers to the cartridge being of the model loaded with the “balle D” projectile, the first true spitzer bullet.


#3

“Art. D” refers to Artillerie (Service), Desaleux (the officer who designed the "Balle “D” ( Balle Desaleux).

Other markings on French 8mm Lebel cartridges: “A.A” Amorce Anglais–English Primer ( as in the .303 British cartidge --.250 diameter).

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#4

On 8mm Lebel, there is also “ART M” which indicates a case with a modified base. On calibers .351 and .401 SL Winchester may be found “ART W” referring to Winchester, who made these rounds for France from 1915-1918.

Sometimes “A R T” stands alone, without any initial following it, and as Doc Av said, stands for “Artillerie.” That is known on 11mm Gras, 8mm Lebel, etc.


#5

Hi John,

You have seen 351SL and 401 SL from US manufacturing with ART M in the hstp??

jp


#6

J-P - no, I haven’t, because it doesn’t exist. Thank you for pointing out my typographical error, which I have now corrected in that posting. It should have said “ART W” and you will notice that I originally referred to it as pertaining to “Winchester.” Just typing faster than my mind works, as usual. Thanks for pointing it out - a typo error when discussing a headstamp is a really bad thing, much worse than when it simply changes the spelling of some word in text, where the error is obvious to one and all.

Sorry about that.


#7

ok John,

but these ctges, if we are talking about the same ones, are not winchester made but french made.
hstps are 1 ART W 401 16 ECP or 3 ART W 351 16 ECP

JP


#8

J-P. Thanks again. You are right of course, and I don’t even know why I said they were made by Winchester. I believe some early shipments were made by Winchester to France, but with just the regulard winchester headstamp. I am not even sure about that, since it is just something I read somewhere.

When I first starting collecting I looked into the .301 Winchester and .401 Winchester cartridges to see if I wanted to collect them along with my auto pistol. They are cartridges like the .30 Carbine, that other than as simply “Commercial Rifle” or “Military rifle” are hard to classify. While, unlike the .30 Carbine, they were never chambered in a pistol, but I just liked the “look” of them as sort of long auto pistol rounds (remember, I was young and a brand new, beginning cartridge collector who knew nothing about ammunition other than how to shoot it!). I decided against it, and have not studied the cartridge since. I probably should keep my mouth shut on some of this stuff, as I really don’t know that much about it, Still, the errors J-P have pointed out are just plain stupidity on my part, as I know those particular headstamps were French-made, and simply got it confused in my feeble brain.

Thanks for trying to keep me honest, J-P. It is probably a losing battle.