8x57 M88 headstamp


#21

Dutch–Perhaps you can help clear some of this up. The information I posted about the 6 different cases was mostly from information I have been able to understand primarily
from “Die Militarpatronen Kaliber 7,9mm” by Brandt, et al. I do not speak or read German and can only make out certain words, probably just enough to get me in trouble and to misinterpret things. Here are 2 pages concerning the case types and a table showing the headstamps. Perhaps you can tell us what it is saying about the n/A and n/A. cases. (Click on the images to enlarge for reading)



#22

Dutch–I do have to disagree that the “S” as used on 7.92 x 57 Infanterie cases with “S88” in the headstamp stands for
"Spitz". In this instance the “S” is referring to the case and not the bullet. I would agree that the use of the “S” on 7.9 x 57 Mauser does stands for “Spitz”


#23

I think I know why no one answered my question earlier in this discussion. I ask why the Pat.88 still had the round nose instead of a spitze as late as 1912. Now that I think about it, by its very nomenclature the Pat.88 can only be a round nose. The Pat-S replaced the Pat.88. The Pat-S is what all modified GEW88 fired. So, if all the GEW88 were modified for the Pat-S, there was no reason for Pat.88 in 1912. I think the modifications started in 1905. The ony GEW 88 I have ever seen that not modified for the Pat. S came from the Bundeswher techincal collection. There should have been no need for Pat.88 after the introduction of the Pat-S and subquent modification of all GEW88. Right?


#24

Well, there obviously was a need as it was made up to 1915 and a few special lots after that. I would guess that some of the home guard or small units were still using un-converted M88’s with the .318 bore. after the .323 “S.Patrone” was adopted in the regular military in 1905.


#25

Ron,

This part from the book was written by Dr. Erik Windisch. One of the best 7,9 specialist I know.

Powder load until Sept. 1893 2.75 g powder
The case mount had a conical form 7,93mm- front 8.03mm. The bullet (8.01mm) was pressed in. They found out that the brass from the cartridge case M88 get cracks on the bullet mouth after it was on stock for a couple of years. The brass was too hard for the tension when the bullet was pressed in the case. In further resurge, they discovered also almost invisible cracks in the base of the M88 case. The primer was blowing out. The commission who made the investigation advised to rework all cartridges. Pin the bullet (Kornerpunkte) and make primer crimps. We discussed that some months ago.
The new designed case called n/A (neue Art) The material they used to make the new case was 3.1 mm instead of 2,7mm.
They also found out that the powder changed over the years. The powder # 436 was used after they loaded the powder from the older type (August 1895) I am sorry, I overlooked that.
I think now, the difference between the #2 and #3 is the powder.

Without any quistion the


#26

Many thanks all for very interesting information and discussion. I would like to collect all above mentioned info in short list (based on Ron Merchant’s post), which can help me to understand 7,92x57 cases evolution more exactly. Please, check it and give your comments.

So we have 6 types of cartridges discussed before:

1)-PAT.88
PATRONEN 88 or 8 X 57 INFANTERIE
CARTRIDGE MODEL 1888

Used from Sep. 1893 to Oct. 1893.

This case always has a 3-part headstamp.

Loaded with 2,75 g GEW.Bl. P.
Pappeblattchen 88 - 1,5 mm disk

This cases had a problems with cracking of case mouth and at the base they was on stock for a couple of years

2)-PAT.88 n/A
PATRONEN 88 or 8 X 57 INFANTERIE "NEUER ART"
CARTRIDGE MODEL 1888, NEW TYPE

Used from Nov. 1893 to June 1895.

This case always has a 3-part headstamp.

Loaded with 2,75 g GEW.Bl. P.
Pappeblattchen 88 - 1,8 mm disk

To avoid problems with cracking, the new n/A cases became to form from disk thickness 3.1 mm instead of 2,7mm. Additionally where added the Kornerpunktes to fix the bullet and primer crimps.

3)-PAT.88 n/A. (with dot after n/A)
PATRONEN 88 or 8 X 57 INFANTERIE “NEUER ART” (PUNKT)
CARTRIDGE MODEL 1888, NEW TYPE (POINT)

Used from July 1895 to Sept.1901.

This case always has a 3-part headstamp (Most factories stopped with the 3-part headstamp (and probably the Model 88 n/A. case with it) in 1901, but K


#27

Treshkin–As far as I know, I think you have things right.
As to the 1899 to 1905 cases with segment lines, I am not aware of any special designation. They were most likely specially selected lots suitable for both rifle and machine gun use. I doubt if they had a special case construction.

Concerning cases with “S” or “S88”, I think what you said is true. They are both the same case construction. Only the bullet and powder charge are different.

To my knowledge “SE” is only used with “S-Patrone” 7.92x57 Mauser and never with M88. In this usage it means “Spitzer bullet with copper washed steel case”.
If you meant “S” at 6 o’clock and “E” at 3 o’clock then that means "made by Spandau with “E” type brass case.


#28

[quote=“JohnMoss”]The 3-position headstamp was used at least into 1902. Most factories stopped with that style of headstamp (and probably the Model 88 n/A case with it) in 1901, but K


#29

Unfortunately I am not at home this week.
Give an answer this weekend.

Dutch


#30

Treshkin, my friend, you are right of course. I missed this headstamp because I don’t have a single specimen with that trinomial headstamp in my collection. The earliest one reported on any studies I have is “MW 5 14.” It is a Model 88 loading, as is lot 6 of 1914, the only two for that year reported.

In 1915, Munitionswerke Sch


#31

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Treshkin, my friend, you are right of course. I missed this headstamp because I don’t have a single specimen with that trinomial headstamp in my collection. The earliest one reported on any studies I have is “MW 5 14.” It is a Model 88 loading, as is lot 6 of 1914, the only two for that year reported.

In 1915, Munitionswerke Sch


#32

ab


#33

Laurent–Thanks for the link to an excellent web site on the 7.9 x 57 cartridge.


#34

That website is by our very own “Dutch” on the Forum here, a dear friend and one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met, not only on German ammunition, especially the 7.9 x 57, but also on many other subjects. The list of known lot numbers is just about one of the most valuable documents anyone interested in this caliber could possibly have. Of course, mine is printed out, being an “old fogey” in the extreme. Regardless of how used, it answers a myriad of questions and for me, is one of the most used items in my cartridge library.

Dutch, my dear friend, when was the last update on the list on the web?

John Moss

P.S. The picture of the odd MWS headstamp I mentioned will be posted in the next few days.


#35

Unusual style of German headstamp, from February 1915 made by Munitionwerke Sch


#36

One must remember that MWS was a subsidiary of Sellier & Bellot, of Prague, part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and that their Patrone 88 production may have been not only for the German Army, but for the substantial number of Gewehr M13 in the Austrian Forces (stocks of Steyr-made Gewehr 88 turned over in 1914.) And being in original round nosed patr.88 loading , more probable for the Austrians than for the Germans.
Whilst the germans still had some original Gew88, most had been converted to the M88/05, or 88/14 or “S” configuration, and all these used "Patrone “S”.

Just a supposition connecting Rifle type usage and ammunition supply…
has anyone seen Austrian -made WW I Patrone 88 catridges…maybe Hirtenberger, or Keller or G.Roth??

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#37

Doc Av - I have read before that Munitionswerke Sch


#38

Here is my understanding of the ammunition factories at Sch


#39

[quote=“Laurent”]Hello Treshin, I’m not able to give my point of vue in this discussion, but here a very interesting website:
home.scarlet.be/p.colmant/index_3.htm[/quote]

Thank you! I like this great site very much and often use it to identify the headstamps and cartridges. It’s also very useful if I have only case and need to know which type of bullet it was loaded.

As I know, all my Ukrainian and Russian friends also use this site may be every week.


#40

WBD - If I read your summary correctly, than my own doubts about the relationship of MWS and S&B seem to have been correct, that they were not related and that people are mistaking MWS with the Sch