8x58mm R Sauer or what?

I have some of these, most with the Utendoerffer HS, one with the H, maybe H. Huck from the same city?
Now, these looks like the mentioned Sauer, still the one HS state ‘57’ the actual measure is 56,5…
Bullet Ø is some 8,15 mm, so the ‘8mm’ should be OK.
Rim Ø is 12,85 mm

Nice headstamp! Thanks for showing.
I’ll wait for the experts.
Dan

The Utedoerffer?
This must have been a large manufacturer pre WW2, I have several cartridges from those

Yes, Utendoerffer absorbed by RWS in 1889 but used Utendoerffer Nurnberg hs till 1920’s. The other hs I had not seen before. But there are a lot of those! (hs I have not seen!)
Dan

The left one with the “H. 57.8m/m” hs is generally regarded as being the 8x57R Hagen Express (EXP22). The right one could be the same caliber or the 8x58R Sauer (GSP22 - Utendoerffer produced both), depending on the exact measurements. Here are some notes on the Hagen:


This tapered case based on the 360 Express case is easily confused with the 8x58R Sauer GSP22). It was originally referred to as the “8.25x57R Hagen” but is best known by its post-WW1 title; the 8x57R Express. This must be referring to the gunmaker L.H. Hagen of Oslo. This is then the 8mm counterpart of the 9.3x57R Hagen Express (EXP53). No examples with "8.25’ hs are known to exist.

Most of the major German and Austrian companies manufactured this caliber and all specimens of the 8x57R tapered case have the 8.2mm bullet and same rim thickness which implies that the 8x57R and 8.25x57R are likely the same case. Two RWS factory drawings exist one titled “Express 360/57/8 Hagen” and the other “Express 360/57/8.25 Hagen” with both being practically identical and apparently using the same 8.14-8.2mm caliber bullet. Both are considered interchangeable. This is effectively an 8mm “S” caliber but now referred to as just 8mm. See EXP53 for some more packet images.

RWS catalogs list this in the “D” Express section implying that it has a rim thickness of 0.90-1.1mm and this is confirmed by measurement. All Roth examples measured have such rims. This was still listed in the 1932 RWS catalog. Geco listed this cartridge in their 1933 catalog (but not their 1939 catalog) but this is likely to be RWS production.

Roth case #481 is c1893/1894 which is earlier than the similar 8x58R Sauer (GSP22) which was Roth case #643 (c1898) .

Both are 360 based tapered cases with “D” type rims, but the bullet diameter of the Hagen is slightly larger and it generally has a slightly shorter case length. However, the case length of the 8x58R can vary considerably, from 56.85mm (PS) to 58.5mm (RWS).

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Great news WBD!
I then will consult some real experts of the Hagen, Oslo production.
I do have shotgun shells, 12x44 and 12x42 from Hagen production, some also
marked Hagen Lund…
That this might end up as a ‘local manufacture’ is quite a surprise!

Lancaster, to be clear, this is most likely RWS production with the slight possibility it is Hirtenberger.

But then the vast production of the 12x44R and other ‘Hagen’ marked cases were also German made.

It was however intended for the Scandinavian market.

OK, you do not believe it to be of Huck, next to H.Utendoerffer?
With my caliper I am not able to measure any significant differences,
but when the world is back on track, I will ask for a visit to those knowing
the most of the Hagen and other Oslo and Kongsberg manufacturers ! Most interesting!

Nothing to do with Huck.

Here are the known hs variations:

image

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Respect !

Huck is out of the question. It was a pre-WW2 factory specifically erected for military contracts. Not unlike a U.S. government-owned, contractor-operated (GOCO) factory. Huck actually made only German 7.9 mm cases, which were finally loaded by Dynamit AG (RWS factory) at nearby Stadeln.
The H, later HK, appeared only in cold war times, when Huck was the major manufacturer of plastic blanks (Manöverpatronen) for the Bundeswehr.

Dan, you mention that there are a lot of calibers with “Utendoerffer” in the hs.

So out of interest I queried my database for European Sporting Rifle calibers with Utendoerffer hs and there are 245 different calibers with at least one of the approx 14 different generic “Utendoerffer” hs.

Great news! Thank you for sharing.
Do you have information of what Pxxx or XXX no Huck used on their 7,92x57 cases?

The codes were P346 and eom.

Thank you!