8x63R?


#1

Can anyone provide id for this cartridge?
Looks like a rimmed version of the 8x63 RWS.
Could not find anything about it.
Appears factory loaded to me.

Bullet dia : 8.05mm - .317
Neck dia : 8.78mm - .345
Shoulder dia : 10,85mm - .427
Base dia : 11.83mm - .465
Rim dia : 13,21mm - .520
Case l : 62,88mm - 2.476
Neck l : 9mm - .354
Base to shoulder l : 50,5mm - 1.988
Weight : 26,92g - 415gr


Thanks in advance.
Pascal


#2

Title should be “8x63JR”, as it uses a .317 bullet suited for a .311Bore/.318 groove barrel, common on Drillings ( Two Shot barrels, one rifled barrel)

Case head diameter also fits diameter used on other “Rimmed drilling cartridges”
(.465), much smaller than the Rimless cases which runs .469-.471.

I would have thought that the “H-Uttendorfer” head stamp would have disappeared, as it was absorbed by the RWS combine early in the Century, but maybe the name was retained before WW I for commercial Purposes, this being a “sporting” cartridge. Anybody know how long this H/S survived?

Regards,
Doc AV


#3

This is an interesting cartridge Pascal - another nice one of yours.

It appears to either be a rimmed version of the scarce 8x63 M88 case type (with RWS hs) or a necked down 9x63R which was introduced by RWS about 1913 with Utendoerffer hs - most likely. I agree it looks factory loaded

There is also a similar 8x63.5R GECADO case which is considered by some to be the 8x65R Vierordt case type but these have a c1mm thinner case diameter so it is not that.

I will give it some more thought…

Regarding nomenclature, it would be inappropriate to call this a “JR” especially as the “J” is referring to (I believe ?) “Infantry” and so only should be used with the 8x57.

If a sporting cartridge uses both “S” and “non-S” calibres then the “S” is used but not a “J”.

eg:

8x57 8x57R 8x60 8x60R 8x64 8x65R 8x75 8x75R
8x57S 8x57RS 8x60S 8x60RS 8x64S 8x65RS 8x75S 8x75RS

Regarding the use of “H.Utendoerffer” hs on RWS ammo, this hs was used on cases released in RWS packets as late as 1943 (eg Steel cased 12.7x44R) but this was the exception. It was however still commonly used into the 1910’s and even 1920’s : eg 6.5x65R S&S


#4

Pascal, great cartridge!

If we follow RWS nomenclature this cartridge would be designated M 88/63/8 mm m. Rand, but it is not mentioned in any RWS catalog that I’m aware of. I have a copy of the drawing for the 9 x 63 R but can’t find any for this one.

The headstamp used in this cartridge is also the same found on the 9 x 63 R (M 88/63/9 mm m. Rand); note the dots before the “H” and between the “R” and “G”.


#5

Fede, your point about the RWS nomenclature is valid but that was early and was evidently officialy changed in Erfurt conference of Sep 1909 (to “calibre x case length”) although RWS still used in catalogs a variation of what you show until the 1920’s.

About the origins of the cartridge. You are right about the dots. The “H.UTENDOERFFER . NÜRNBERG” is far less common that the one without the two dots or using the stars. Of the long RWS M88 cases only the 9x63R has this hs. It also uses the same ring crimp for the primer which is also consistent.

After comparing the dimensions,this 8x63R case does not match the 8x63 rimless. The shoulder is lower and more closely matches the 9x63R. This all points to the 8x63R being made from 9x63R cases likely by RWS as a factory experimental sometime in the c1912-WW1 period.


#6

Thanks again for the professional answers.

About to finish reorganisation of all my european sporting cartridges according to WBD’s codes in his excellent books. Those MB’s nearly drove me crazy.

Pascal


#7

Thanks for the comments Pascal.

Always keen to see what you have ?

For your information, I have added your 8x63R as ESC code #M81

Also your 5.5x56R DM-K as GSP77

My list of MB cartridges now reaches MB152


#8

I only have to MB150, what’s 151 and 152? And M80?

These are probably not yet uploaded in ECRA Caliber data viewer.

Pascal


#9

Here’s all the ESC codes that weren’t in my books. Most have been loaded in the ECRADV but not all have had the ESC number assigned. I haven’t checked for awhile:

Austrian Types
A74 12.2x60R No1 Ferlacher Express
A75 12.2x54R No2 Ferlacher Express
A76 11.7x54R No3 Ferlacher Express
A77 14.75x49R No1 Rinesz
A78 12.9x65R No2 Rinesz
A79 11.5x60R No3 Rinesz
A80 9x54 Austrian Hunting
A81 11.2x42R Werndl Target
A82 5.6x42R Peterlongo
A83 5.7x33 Austrian Target Pistol
A84 11.15x36R Werndl
A85 600/538 Mega Magnum
A86 11.8x58R Austrian
A87 11.8x49R Austrian Target
A88 6x39R Mannlicher Miniature
A89 6.5x54 MS
A90 6x51 Atzl
A91 8x40R Austrian Tesching
A92 6.9x65R Pritz
A93 9.5x60R Pritz
A94 6.5x53.5R Mannlicher
A95 8x50R Mannlicher
A96 7x64.5 Peterlongo
A97 10.6x80 Tyr
A98 9.5x50R MOe
A99 10.4x62 Impala

Express
EXP50 10.45x82R Express
EXP51 8x72R Egestorff
EXP52 11.6x70R D EXPRESS
EXP53 9.3x57R Hagen Express
EXP54 12.7x60R E Express
EXP55 12.7x70R E Express
EXP56 8.2x63R Austrian Sporting
EXP57 9x72R Express
EXP58 11.6x52R Express
EXP59 11.15x40R Stahl Express
EXP60 11.15x52R Stahl Express
EXP61 11.15x60R Stahl Express
EXP62 11.15x65R Stahl Express

French
FR85 6.5x63 Messner Magnum
FR86 6.5x63R Messner Magnum
FR87 308 ESP
FR88 8mm-348 French Sporting
FR89 30-06 Court Cartry
FR90 303 French Sporting
FR91 6mm Boulanger Short
FR92 6mm Boulanger Long
FR93 7mm Boulanger Shot
FR94 9mm Boulanger Short Shot
FR95 9mm Boulanger Long Shot
FR96 7.5x54 French
FR97 8x50R Lebel
FR98 7mm Günther Sarbacane Ball
FR99 7mm Günther Sarbacane Shot
FR100 5mm Karcher Shot
FR101 7.5x14R Canne Disk Primed
FR102 7mm Gourdin Sarbacane
FR103 8.5x63 Messner Magnum
FR104 375 Verney-Carron

German Sporting
GSP71 10x45 M88
GSP72 9x52R B Target
GSP73 8x70R Sauer
GSP74 12.5x42R Beaumont
GSP75 7x52R Dreyse
GSP76 9x59R Dreyse
GSP77 5.5x56R DM-K
GSP78 7.5x57R Mauser Experimental

M88 Mauser based
M68 9x42R M88
M69 10.75x63 RWS M88 Rim
M70 8x49 M88 Mauser
M71 8x62 RWS Experimental
M72 9.3x38 M88 Mauser
M73 9.3x70 RWS Experimental
M74 10.75x68R Mauser
M75 9x57 M88/9A
M76 9x57 M88/9B
M77 6.5x58 Mauser
M78 7.65x53 Mauser
M79 9x70R Express
M80 7.5x57R Mauser Experimental
M81 8x63R Mauser Experimental

MB
MB138 11.15x52R M Target
MB139 11.15x37R Grenzaufseher
MB140 11.3x48R MB Austrian
MB141 11x50R M Target
MB142 9.8x40R MB Austrian
MB143 11.5x52R Lorenz
MB144 10.8x30R Austrian MB
MB145 11.15x60R Mauser
MB146 8x60R M Target
MB147 11x46R MB Target
MB148 9.5x70R MB Target
MB149 9.8x37R Dreyse MB Target
MB150 11x54R MB
MB151 9.5x47R Bd Target
MB152 10.5x47R Bd Target

MS
MS39 9x58R Austrian

SCANDINAVIAN
SC53 10.3x61R Jarmann Experimental
SC54 12x75R Finnish
SC55 10.15x60R Swedish Experimental
SC56 10.15x61R Jarmann Experimental
SC57 6x70R Norma
SC58 300 Lapua Magnum
SC59 338 M&K
SC60 12.7x88R H
SC61 12.9x100R H
SC62 6mm Epa
SC63 300 Aija K
SC64 6.5x55 SE
SC65 8x58R Krag
SC66 423 Dakota-Lapua
SC67 6.5x47 Lapua
SC68 366 IH Magnum
SC69 338 Norma Magnum
SC70 300 Norma Magnum
SC71 375 Norma Magnum
SC72 7.62x65 Sjögren

SWISS
SW16 6x55 Swiss Match
SW17 6x47 SM
SW18 10x53 Swiss
SW19 10.3x64 Häberli
SW20 7.5x55 Swiss
SW21 10.3x72 Gian Marchet
SW22 10.3x74R Gian Marchet

Post WW1
W84 7x64.5 Brenneke Maximum
W85 7x66 Vom Hofe Prototypes
W86 8x66 Brenneke Maximum
W87 9.3x66 Brenneke Maximum
W88 8x80R Brenneke
W89 6.5-284 Norma
W90 500/416 Krieghoff NE
W91 577/500 Hartmann & Weiss
W92 5.6x66 Vom Hofe Maximum Type2
W93 6x65R Mayer
W94 6x64 Mayer
W96 6x52R Bretschneider
W97 7x75R Vom Hofe Experimental
W98 7.6x66 Maximum
W99 9x34 Behmlot
W100 45 Blaser
W101 11x80 Geier
W102 8.5x75R Scheiring
W103 9.5x69 Tornado
W104 8x64 Mazón
W105 4x28.5 Miniature Mauser
W106 3.5x28.5 Miniature Mauser
W107 404 Schüler Magnum
W108 6.5x51 RWS
W109 7x65R Brenneke Experimental
W110 10.75x73 Mauser
W111 7.92x33 Kurz
W112 5.7x57 Experimental
W113 45 Blaser Rimmed
W114 300 Blaser Magnum
W115 7x67R Luyven
W116 5.6x70R Klaus
W117 7mm JWW
W118 9.5x57R MS
W119 7mm Blaser Magnum
W120 338 Blaser Magnum
W121 375 Blaser Magnum
W122 6.5x52R Bretschneider 2


#10

Thank you very much,

Best,

Pascal


#11

WBD, i noticed both GSP77 and M80 have the designation 7.5x57R Mauser xpl ?

And do MS37 and MS38 have a designation ?

Pascal


#12

Sorry Pascal, I rushed that list a bit before heading to bed. Here is an updated version:

Austrian Types
A74 12.2x60R No1 Ferlacher Express
A75 12.2x54R No2 Ferlacher Express
A76 11.7x54R No3 Ferlacher Express
A77 14.75x49R No1 Rinesz
A78 12.9x65R No2 Rinesz
A79 11.5x60R No3 Rinesz
A80 9x54 Austrian Hunting
A81 11.2x42R Werndl Target
A82 5.6x42R Peterlongo
A83 5.7x33 Austrian Target Pistol
A84 11.15x36R Werndl
A85 600/538 Mega Magnum
A86 11.8x58R Austrian
A87 11.8x49R Austrian Target
A88 6x39R Mannlicher Miniature
A89 6.5x54 MS
A90 6x51 Atzl
A91 8x40R Austrian Tesching
A92 6.9x65R Pritz
A93 9.5x60R Pritz
A94 6.5x53.5R Mannlicher
A95 8x50R Mannlicher
A96 7x64.5 Peterlongo
A97 10.6x80 Tyr
A98 9.5x50R MOe
A99 10.4x62 Impala

Express
EXP50 10.45x82R Express
EXP51 8x72R Egestorff
EXP52 11.6x70R D EXPRESS
EXP53 9.3x57R Hagen Express
EXP54 12.7x60R E Express
EXP55 12.7x70R E Express
EXP56 8.2x63R Austrian Sporting
EXP57 9x72R Express
EXP58 11.6x52R Express
EXP59 11.15x40R Stahl Express
EXP60 11.15x52R Stahl Express
EXP61 11.15x60R Stahl Express
EXP62 11.15x65R Stahl Express

French
FR85 6.5x63 Messner Magnum
FR86 6.5x63R Messner Magnum
FR87 308 ESP
FR88 8mm-348 French Sporting
FR89 30-06 Court Cartry
FR90 303 French Sporting
FR91 6mm Boulanger Short
FR92 6mm Boulanger Long
FR93 7mm Boulanger Shot
FR94 9mm Boulanger Short Shot
FR95 9mm Boulanger Long Shot
FR96 7.5x54 French
FR97 8x50R Lebel
FR98 7mm Günther Sarbacane Ball
FR99 7mm Günther Sarbacane Shot
FR100 5mm Karcher Shot
FR101 7.5x14R Canne Disk Primed
FR102 7mm Gourdin Sarbacane
FR103 8.5x63 Messner Magnum
FR104 375 Verney-Carron

German Sporting
GSP71 10x45 M88
GSP72 9x52R B Target
GSP73 8x70R Sauer
GSP74 12.5x42R Beaumont
GSP75 7x52R Dreyse
GSP76 9x59R Dreyse
GSP77 5.5x56R DM-K

M88 Mauser based
M68 9x42R M88
M69 10.75x63 RWS M88 Rim
M70 8x49 M88 Mauser
M71 8x62 RWS Experimental
M72 9.3x38 M88 Mauser
M73 9.3x70 RWS Experimental
M74 10.75x68R Mauser
M75 9x57 M88/9A
M76 9x57 M88/9B
M77 6.5x58 Mauser
M78 7.65x53 Mauser
M79 9x70R Express
M80 7.5x57R Mauser Experimental
M81 8x63R Mauser Experimental

MB
MB138 11.15x52R M Target
MB139 11.15x37R Grenzaufseher
MB140 11.3x48R MB Austrian
MB141 11x50R M Target
MB142 9.8x40R MB Austrian
MB143 11.5x52R Lorenz
MB144 10.8x30R Austrian MB
MB145 11.15x60R Mauser
MB146 8x60R M Target
MB147 11x46R MB Target
MB148 9.5x70R MB Target
MB149 9.8x37R Dreyse MB Target
MB150 11x54R MB
MB151 9.5x47R Bd Target
MB152 10.5x47R Bd Target

MS37 Removed - see notes at end of document
MS38 Removed - see notes at end of document
MS39 9x58R Austrian

SCANDINAVIAN
SC53 10.3x61R Jarmann Experimental
SC54 12x75R Finnish
SC55 10.15x60R Swedish Experimental
SC56 10.15x61R Jarmann Experimental
SC57 6x70R Norma
SC58 300 Lapua Magnum
SC59 338 M&K
SC60 12.7x88R H
SC61 12.9x100R H
SC62 6mm Epa
SC63 300 Aija K
SC64 6.5x55 SE
SC65 8x58R Krag
SC66 423 Dakota-Lapua
SC67 6.5x47 Lapua
SC68 366 IH Magnum
SC69 338 Norma Magnum
SC70 300 Norma Magnum
SC71 375 Norma Magnum
SC72 7.62x65 Sjögren

SWISS
SW16 6x55 Swiss Match
SW17 6x47 SM
SW18 10x53 Swiss
SW19 10.3x64 Häberli
SW20 7.5x55 Swiss
SW21 10.3x72 Gian Marchet
SW22 10.3x74R Gian Marchet

Post WW1
W84 7x64.5 Brenneke Maximum
W85 7x66 Vom Hofe Prototypes
W86 8x66 Brenneke Maximum
W87 9.3x66 Brenneke Maximum
W88 8x80R Brenneke
W89 6.5-284 Norma
W90 500/416 Krieghoff NE
W91 577/500 Hartmann & Weiss
W92 5.6x66 Vom Hofe Maximum Type2
W93 6x65R Mayer
W94 6x64 Mayer
W96 6x52R Bretschneider
W97 7x75R Vom Hofe Experimental
W98 7.6x66 Maximum
W99 9x34 Behmlot
W100 45 Blaser
W101 11x80 Geier
W102 8.5x75R Scheiring
W103 9.5x69 Tornado
W104 8x64 Mazón
W105 4x28.5 Miniature Mauser
W106 3.5x28.5 Miniature Mauser
W107 404 Schüler Magnum
W108 6.5x51 RWS
W109 7x65R Brenneke Experimental
W110 10.75x73 Mauser
W111 7.92x33 Kurz
W112 5.7x57 Experimental
W113 45 Blaser Rimmed
W114 300 Blaser Magnum
W115 7x67R Luyven
W116 5.6x70R Klaus
W117 7mm JWW
W118 9.5x57R MS
W119 7mm Blaser Magnum
W120 338 Blaser Magnum
W121 375 Blaser Magnum
W122 6.5x52R Bretschneider 2

**************************Notes
MS37 This code was originally listed in ESC as a 10.4x55R Swiss Vetterli.
This cartridge was shown in Datig volume III as a military experimental and is confirmed as using a case type larger than the ‘MS’ type. This cartridge has now been removed from ESC.

MS38 : This code was originally listed in ESC as a 10.4x63R Vetterli. This is in fact the multi ball version (military) of the 10,35 Vetterli. This cartridge has now been removed from ESC.


#13

Brad, I wish you have this list published someday, your work is admirable.

The 9 x 34 Behmlot is not an sporting cartridge but an special blank used with the Behmlot fathometer (Behm sound ranging altimeter). It was designed by Alexander Behm from Kiel.


#14

Well spotted Fede - I actually had already realised this a couple of years ago and removed it but didn’t update my amendment list, So W99 should read

W99 Removed - see Behmlot article.


#15

It is also the same case as the 12,2 x 34,6 Echolot (DWM 576).

The 6.5x51 RWS (108) is a rimless version of the 6.5x51SR Type 38 (Arisaka) made by RWS for the US market.


#16

Mr. Dixon Sir,
Will you be doing a second edition or an update to “European Sporting Cartridges” or do you have a document you could share with us telling the history and dimensions of the cartridges from your list above that were not shown in your book?

Thanks
Brian


#17

Hello Brian, since I published my two volumes I have amassed much more info on the European Sporting Cartridges. It is all collected in a MS ACCESS Database that I have provided to people on demand. Virtually all the images are now in colour and I also have images of many of the nks examples from the book. 945 Calibres, plus more complete & accurate dimensional data, packet images, headstamp checklists (over 5,300 at last count) with images of most. Additional note, links, over 700 articles of small to large size including another 1500 images etc

Collectors all over the world have been very generous and I would like to make this information available for all. Much of it has been included in the ECRA DataViewer which is a massive database and I recommend serious collectors purchase.

My mid-term intention is to get all the information into a website for all to read and use. This way it will be a “dynamic document” where the information can be improved as corrections and additions are made. I am not too far off retirement and that will be my goal from that time.

In the interim, I’m sorry I do not have a document with the new items but if anyone wants more info on any of the extra listings from my book they can ask a specific question here and I will show what I have. Otherwise they can contact me through a PM and I will see how I can help. I also have word documents of my original chapters of European Sporting cartridges but these now look thin in detail compared to all my extra info.

Good to see that there is still interest in those wonderful European Sporting !!

Cheers… Brad Dixon


#18

Hello WBD,
George Hoyem has been my mentor for the last 15 years. He got me started with European cartridges by showing me things I never realized existed. I did his website for a few years.
I started out with an Access database which grew beyond reasonable measure and I got tired of Microsoft changing their VBA code base for Access.
I switched to Word and have better control over the text and images.
I do miss the database searchability.

I need to get the ECRA database. That should fill in the missing information in my documentation and give me the search capability I need.

I look forward to seeing your website.

Thanks again,

Brian