8x70R Sauer & Sohn


#1

I found mention of two loading of this rare caliber in a J. P. Sauer & Sohn from 1907. Known specimens are headstamped H.UTENDOERFFER NÜRNBERG. Also, there is a RWS drawing number M271 titled “Patronenhülse S.S. 70/8.”


#2

Thanks for this Fede, I hadn’t seen it before.

The 8x70R S&S was added to the European Sporting Cartridges database a couple of years ago (as GSP73) and I have included the notes on it below. As you can see below, other cases have been used to produce this 70mm case but no proper headstamped cases are known.

Another important point to note is that I think that the 8x70R S&S has been confused with the much more common 8x72R Brenneke and so it (incorrectly) became known as the 8x72R Sauer (ala Barnes COW and others) - I know of no reference of the 1898-WW2 era that attributes the 8x72R as being a Sauer development (happy to hear of one though ???).


This cartridge is only known from an undated RWS factory drawing (likely 1920’s - see images). This is likely an experimental design of the mid-1920’s by RWS for Sauer that never went into commercial production nor possibly was anything more than a factory drawing.

This case is based on the British 360 Express case type and interestingly, is similar to the 8x72R Brenneke Express (W12) which has been referred to as an ‘8x72 Sauer’ (ie ‘S & S’) but has never been known to have a Sauer hs. Maybe someone has confused them ?

This case has a rim closest to the “D” type and the “D” case profile. Examples of a 8x71R made from 9.3x72R D Roth cases are known (see images) which may be an attempt to produce this case but this is not likely to have been by RWS ?

There also exist 8x70R cases with "H//360// " hs which should have been made from 9.3x72R “E” type cases (see images). Also Austrian and not likely to have been by RWS ?

There also exists a 8x70R necked express cartridge (Beutter auction #2) that is very similar in appearance to the 8x72R Collath (GSP12) but with a 2mm shorter case and 2mm lower shoulder. This has a “H.UTENDOERFFER NÜRNBERG” hs and can have been made from a wide variety of 360 Express cases: 9.3x70R E Express (EXP11), 9.3x72R E Express (EXP12) or perhaps the “D” case types ?



#3

Fede, when you state:

Are you referring to the necked 8x70R cases from the Manfred Beutter auctions or did you have some other source for this information ?


#4

Brad, thanks a lot for sharing your notes, as usual.

Regarding known examples of the 8x70R with conical case, my notes are mistaken and refer to the necked case shown in M. Beutter’s auction vol. 2. Sorry for the confusion!

Well, at least now we know that it was offered in a commercial catalog.

Regards,

Fede


#5

I agree with you Fede, the more information the better.

I have incorporated the new information for the 8x70R (which has generated a little speculation) and here are the current notes for GSP73:


This cartridge is known from two sources; a listing in a Sauer catalog, believed dated 1907 and also an undated RWS factory drawing (probably produced in the 1920’s as a “re-drawing” - see images). This “SS 70/8” (‘SS’ or ‘S&S’ refers to Sauer & Sohn) is likely a Sauer/RWS design of c1900-1905 for Sauer that never saw significant commercial production.

The case, like other Sauer cartridges of this era (ie. 6.5x48R/58/65R, 8x48R/58R), is based on the British 360 Express case type and interestingly, is very much like a shortened 8x72R Brenneke Express (W12). The Brenneke case has been referred to as an ‘8x72 Sauer’ (particularly in the US) apparently from when Fred Datig (incorrectly) stated that it was developed by Sauer in his volume 1 of “Cartridges for Collectors” in 1956. The 8x72R has never been known to have a “SS” or “S&S” hs and I know of no reference of the 1898-WW2 era that attributes the 8x72R as being a Sauer development. This mistake was followed by others (particularly Barnes in “Cartridges of the World”) and continues today, although not evidently in Europe. Sauer guns are chambered for the 8x72R but that doesn’t mean that it was a Sauer design and also brings up an interesting point to consider…

I believe that this Sauer design could well be a response to the introduction of the 8x72R Brenneke in 1898. When introduced, there was no similar case type in Germany and that enabled Wilhelm Brenneke to get D.R.G.M #96541 which is a limited form of protection stopping anyone else from producing a product of similar description. In the DRGM, it was for a cylindrical case of 72mm with an 8.25mm bullet in a conical mouth of the case. Having a further three year extension for this “limited patent”, meant that competitors couldn’t produce cartridges with that description for six years to 1904. The “360/72/8,1B” (as it was known then) appears to have quickly gained popularity in a variety of single and multi-barrel guns. It would be quite understandable for a competitor of Brenneke to introduce their own similar cartridge to be chambered in their own guns to try and get around this monopoly as soon as possible. Sauer & Sohn were such a competitor and a large producer of sporting rifles at this time. Potentially the “SS 70/8” could achieve similar success and so it would make sense for this to have been introduced relatively quickly c1900 or shortly after.

Maybe Sauer were too late in doing this, for the Brenneke appears to have obtained such a good “foothold” in the market that the Sauer design was not successful and short-lived. This situation appears similar to the fate of the 6.5x65R Sauer (GSP19) in competition with the 6.5x70R Nimrod (GSP20) about a decade later. It is somewhat ironic then that the 8x72R Brenneke became best known (in America anyway) as the 8x72R “SAUER” !

Despite the listing in the Sauer catalog with both Blackpowder and Smokeless loadings, no confirmed production is known nor factory examples have shown themselves to date. However some similar cases have been discovered. This factory drawing shows that this case has a rim closest to the “D” type and having the “D” case profile. Examples of a 8x71R made from 9.3x72R D Roth cases are known (see images) which may be an attempt to produce this case (not likely to have been by RWS). There also exist 8x70R cases with "H//360// " hs which should have been made from 9.3x72R “E” type cases (see images). Also using Austrian cases and not likely to have been by RWS ?

An 8x70R necked express cartridge exists (Beutter auction #2) that is very similar in appearance to the 8x72R Collath (GSP12 which see) but with a 2mm shorter case and 2mm lower shoulder. This has a “H.UTENDOERFFER NÜRNBERG” hs and can have been made from a wide variety of 360 Express cases: 9.3x70R E Express (EXP11), 9.3x72R E Express (EXP12) or perhaps even the “D” case types ?

So all in all an interesting design that can lead to a fair amount of speculation. Maybe someone will “find” such an example and if so it would likely have an “Utendoerffer” or “S&S” hs.



#6

Hello WBD,
If you have a copy of the drawing, would you be willing to post it here?
It would be nice to have for my records.
All the best,
Brian


#7

Here it is Brian