9.4mm Dutch Revolver Query


#1

So I was able to pick up a box of this ammo… I believe its 9.4mm Dutch Revolver (East Indies variety). The individual rounds have no headstamp. The box is pictured below. Bullet is marked with a “2” on one side and “41” on the other.
Anyone know who manufactured it?

(37)
P.S. Nr.3
P.W. 2-41 (I would think is the lot and Feb. 1941 manufacture date)
55mm x 46mm x 37mm

The box is nicely wax coated and is cardboard sectioned and has 12 rounds per box.


Bullet weights 272 grains total.
Rim Dia. 0.487"
Case length 1.08"
Bullet dia. .395" at case mouth.


#2

Hello, it was made by Pyrotechnische Werkplaats, Soerabaja (now called Surabaya, East Java capital city, Indonesia).


#3

Thanks Fede… any idea what the rest of the markings on the box mean?


#4

P. S. Nr. 3 = Patronen scherpe nummer 3 (this is the live cartridge model, plural form).

2-41 = February, 1941

37 = Reported to be the “Loading Plant”, but not sure. Same month and year also exist marked 31, 33 and 36.


#5

[quote=“Fede”]P. S. Nr. 3 = Patronen scherpe nummer 3 (this is the live cartridge model, plural form).

2-41 = February, 1941

37 = Reported to be the “Loading Plant”, but not sure. Same month and year also exist marked 31, 33 and 36.[/quote]

Thanks Fede… top notch…


#6

There was a story about this cartridge and the Dutch Colonial Police revolver that fired it in the 1974 edition of Gun Collector’s Digest, Page 60. There is a picture of a box like yours, and extensive background information about the cartridge is provided. What you have is actually the 10.4 Dutch Police.


#7

The KNIL used the 10,4mm Dutch revolver, whilst the Metropolitan Dutch Army used the 9,4mm revolver. ( basically a “.38”)
The 10,4 was deemed to have more stopping power, and to be more suitable for Colonial use ( enraged natives, animals, etc.) ( basically a “.44” ).

The Two KNIL Plants in Java (Bandoeng & Soerabaya) both assembled and reloaded ammunition for the KNIL…6,5 PS Nr1, etc.

Cases were mostly sent empty from Europe, then Loaded and reloaded in Java (NI). Sometimes, the 10,4 revolver round was made by cutting down 6,5 Rifle cases ( Dimensions of 10,4 Dutch revolver are very similar to the .44 Special case and similar S&W cases, which is similar to the head size of the 6,5 x53R Dutch cartridge. The absence of a Headstamp would signify Thinning of the rim by removing the Headstamp for fitting as a revolver cartridge.

The “o” which is still visible is a “reload” mark used by the Dutch.

The KNIL was still in full function in 1941, as the Japanese did not land in Java till early 1942.

Regards,
Doc AV


#8

Here is some info that I have found out…

[quote]Dutch Army used two different 9.4 mm round:

1). 9.4x21 mm for metropolitan 1873 model revolver .

2). 9.4x23 and 9.4x27 mm for KNIL (Dutch East Indies Army) model 1891 revolver. This is also known as 10mm Soerabaja (or Surabaya, the city of modern Indonesia where it was made).
[/quote]

[quote]I include a scan of a page from “Die Militärrevolver der Niederlande” by H.E.Harder and W.A.Dreschler, Bataafsche Leeuw Amsterdam 1998.

One scan is in German, the other two are in English. The first one, page 211, mentions Erlmeier-Brandt (Band 1, 1967) and states that a 10 mm Soerabaja Cartridge never existed. The revolver cartridge as used in the M73 and M91 in The Netherlands and its colonies was of one calibre, 9,4 mm.

[/quote]


http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/military_photos/ordinance-ammo/15695d1312764516t-my-friends-holland-rare-box-ctgs-scannen.jpg

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/military_photos/ordinance-ammo/15696d1312764516t-my-friends-holland-rare-box-ctgs-scannen0002.jpg

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/military_photos/ordinance-ammo/15697d1312764516t-my-friends-holland-rare-box-ctgs-scannen0003.jpg


#9

There exist also a cartridge with a round nose bullet and a shorter case.

Rgds
Dutch


#10

If the ‘8’ is August what would be indicated by the ‘88’ on the roundnose bullet?


#11

On the other side of the bullet is 12 pressed in.

I think Dezember 1888.

Rgds


#12

The GCD story I originally referred to contends that the 10.4 cartridge is definitely dimensionally different from the 9.4, the bore having a diameter of .399-.401", and that the 9.4 military cartridge is a sloppy fit in the chambers of the Colonial Police revolver. It also states that the bullet is made of very soft, probably unalloyed, lead, presumably for improved expansion performance. I think it odd that the cartridge packet pictures of this round I have seen are dated 1941. Makes me wonder if there were other years of production.

Keep in mind that all I know about this cartridge comes from the aforementioned GCD story and some internet information.


#13

On the rendering of “scharfe Patrone” in German and related phrases in other languages–Dutch and Hungarian for certain but probably others too–it really is best translated as “ball cartridge.” I have thought this for long years but found no agreement elsewhere until I obtained a copy of Moetz’s vol. 1 on Austrian military cartridges. In a table of Austrian German to English terminology he gives “ball cartridge” as the equivalent of “scharfe Patrone.” Jack


#14

Jack, sorry to disappoint you, but it isn’t.

Scherpe translates as ‘live’ in this case. It is used to differentiate between live rounds and blanks.
The phrase ‘scherpe’ (‘sharp’) has nothing to do with ball ammo whatsoever.


#15

But, at least in German, “scharfe” in the context of small arms ammunition, is rendered into correct technical English as “ball.” I realize, of course, that “scharfe” doesn’t actually mean “ball” but (again) at least in German “scharfe” in combination with “Patrone” translates into the English phrase “ball cartridge.” Jack


#16

Original Post deleted. Originally posted unfinished in error, and no time to repost.


#17

[quote=“Fede”]P. S. Nr. 3 = Patronen scherpe nummer 3 (this is the live cartridge model, plural form).

2-41 = February, 1941

37 = Reported to be the “Loading Plant”, but not sure. Same month and year also exist marked 31, 33 and 36.[/quote]

Don’t think it is the loading plant. Perhaps lot number?

Rgds
Dutch


#18

Dutch, most probably, because correlative numbers can be found during the same months:

17 = 4-40
18 = 4-40
19 = 4-40

31 = 2-41
32 = 2-41
33 = 2-41
36 = 2-41
37 = 2-41

2 = 5-41
3 = 5-41


#19

Interesting subject!
To make it even more interesting I can add the following information:

there is also a short cased cartridge with the flattened lead bullet marked 02 12 (seen image)

the case is a little longer then the 9.4mm revolver round (at the right) of the dutch army.

The 10mm soerabaja with the round lead nose is called old model (O.M.) (in dutch; oud model) the longer 10mm soerabaja with the flattened bullet new model (N.M.)(in dutch; nieuw model)

Older packets were collored orange (as an attempt to extend shelf life)

Is there anybody who has more information about the short cased round?

Joost