9.5x60R Mauser Turc


#1

Italian made of the 9.5x60R Mauser Turc?
S.M.I F.B-28


#2

Nice one, how common are these?


#3

Given the Connection between Italy and the “new” Turkish Republic from the time of the Italian Occupation in Turkey 1919-1921), and the former Occupation of the Dodecanese from the Turks in 1911-12 (and Libya as well) it is possible that the Italians had quantities of M1887 Turk Mauser rifles in Local use (Police, gendarmerie, local levies) and so ordered ammo from SMI. The Headstamp is a combination of Italian Commercial (“SMI”) and Military factory (FB date). Could it be that SMI made the cases and that “FB” ( Fabbrica Bologna") assembled the ammo’ or that SMI made the ammo, and that "FB’ was a government inspector who checked the finished ammo? or was “FB” an SMI subsidary factory (Not Campo Tizzoro?)?

Or was it a special contract from Turkey in 1928 (they bought a lot of contract ammo that year, from all over Europe), to supply their secondary armed units which still used the M1887 for training etc within Turkey? Turkish-made and Turk- imported 9,5mm ammo (Pre-WW I) was HS in script arabic ( “large mauser”) and Turkish Ordnance (Islamic) dates; a 1928 Western/Roman Id-Date system was due to the Upcoming change ( 1928-29) to the Roman Alphabet and Western numbers , installed by Ataturk’s Modernisation program.

The friendly Italo-Turk connection occurred in 1921, when the Italians, having decided to get out of “occupying” Turkey, and as a snub to the British and French, who had denied them Territorial gains after WW I (on the Adriatic, and in Africa), decided to hand over their smallarms to Ataturk’s Troops rather than leave them unarmed (with demilitarised (Bolt -less) rifles) in front of the perfidious Brits.
The Turks put them to good use to convince ( without firing a shot) the Brits and French to “leave Turkey to the Turks” and also bolstered them in the Greco-Turkish war of 20-21.

A packet or some indication of Origin of this ammo would help? Turkey, Greece, Africa? Italy even?

SMI did a lot of “small Lot” ammo in the mid 1920s, with cryptic markings.

More researching required.

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#4

I can’t recall why, but I seem to remember reading that a box or two of that ammo was found in Ethiopia. I may have seen that here on the IAA Forum. Can anyone confirm that?


#5

If any was “Found” in Ethiopia, the source could have been (a) Indeed Italian Military/Police Issue, either to Libya (some of their native levies served in Ethiopia…“Spahis”; or(b) trade by Italian merchants (Turkish firearms were prolific in Horn of Africa/Red Sea region;) or© for Royal Abyssinian Army ( with Milsurp Turkish rifles), and thence captured in War or 1935-36 by italians, etc, or (d) Turkish milsurp ( having been supplied by Italy initially…the Possibilities are endless.

A Packet ID and information would be essential for further info. on the History of these cartridges.

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#6

That info might have been in Armin Bickel’s last auction. I’ll try to find it.


#7

There’s a sort of mistery about these cartridges. I am pretty sure they weren’t made for national use but for other purposes ( foreign troops?) Anyway I can confirm that they are pretty scarce and valuable


#8

It wasn’t in Armin’s last auction, perhaps someone can check 2 or 3 auctions back?


#9

Hi
the 9.5x60R Mauser Turc produced in Italy is surely a non common ammunition
In Italy doesn’t exist certain news on its production
I send you the photo of the “misuratore grossezza fondello” (measurer of rim) of this cartridge

it was found in the Pirotecnico di Bologna some decades ago
All the samples of 9.5x60R Mausers Turc of the SMI that are in Italy originate from the foreign countries


#10

Interesting Case gauge Tool; The “FP” in Oval is an inspection mark of a Gov’t Inspector ( it is seen on some M91 Carcano rifles and also ammunition Boxes) and the PB in Bold looks like a “Pietro Beretta” maker’s mark ( similar size and typefont to those found on M91 carbines made by P.Beretta.)

By the way, “Fondello” means “Case Head” , not necessarily “Rim” ( which in Italian is “orlo”, or "Fondello Orlato " ( Rimmed Head).

The shape of the tool looks like an internal gauge Pin, to check the Interior diameter of the case body at the head, rather than the "rim "diameter…A Better photo might show the “holes” off to one side, which may be to measure the external diameter of the “fondello” (Case head).

Rim-diameter gauges are usually just a recessed hole, on the end of a Cylindrical Bar, with a handle ( I have some .455 Webley rim gauges ( Go-No go) of this construction)

Very rare find…Most of these tools were destroyed, scrapped for their steel, or otherwise lost over the years since Bologna stopped production when occupied by the Allies in 1944.

The presence of a Gov’t-inspected Gauge says that some at least of the 9,5 Turk was made for “Italian Gov’t” Acquisition…
so the supply to some Colonial units holding 9,5 Turkish rifles becomes a real possibility…and the only numbers of Turkish rifles in Italian Hands in 1928 could come from stocks captured in Libya or the Dodecanese in 1911-12. ( any Ethiopian examples were only 1936 onwards.).

The Mystery deepens…we have to find who “FP” was ( given that the Italian Inspector’s initials are always stamped Surname first, given name second), and was he contemproary to the 1928 Manufacture period.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.