9 browning short

Boxes found at the Lausanne gun show last week-end.

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Wartime (1940) Czech production in “Z”…former Jiri Roth plant moved to Banska Bystrica and owned by ZB then under German control.
Bi-lingual marking for Police and SS -use in Bohmen u.Mahren, and Slovakia.
Nice Commercial wartime packets.

Doc AV

Commercial packets?

In answer to the second insert by bdgreen,
Since the 9mmKurz was not a Wehrmacht Issue calibre, Officers, (private purchase) police, SS, Gestapo, SD etc, were all considered Private operators, and had to acquire Guns and Ammo outside the Wehrmacht chain of supply. Also exports from Czech factories (Sweden) were considered commercial. Hence the use of S&B and Z headstamps…mostly on pistol ammo, but also on SS 7,9 for the Russian and other fronts.
After 1943, the SS was brought into the Wehrmacht supply chain, and received Normal Wehrmacht ammo in 7.9, 9mm P and 7,9Ă—33.

The 7.65 Browning, and some other calibres ( 7.63 Mauser, 9x25 etc. were also considered commercial, even if the SS used considerable quantities of Schnellfeuers and Hungarian SMGs on the Russian Front.
The whole question of who used what and where they got ammo from, is a still an under-researched area of German WWII ordnance history.

Doc AV

I don’t think this is correct.
Here is a small list what was made / used and was on stock between 1-9-1939 and 30-9-1941 in pistol calibres by the Wehmacht.

Pistoolmunitie

May have been in stock, but what headstamp did
it have???
Did it have P code, or three letter code numbers, as did standard rifle and P.08/ MP, ammo, or the common
Domestic German, Austrian and Czech company headstamps…?
Obviously Wehrmacht Officers with private pistols of approved calibers would have had access to ammo through their own ordnance supply service…

The chart is too small to read on my phone…will have to look on my Comp. Screen.
By expanding the image, the first thing to note is the heading
“Geheime Kommandofache” meaning Secret Command Department"

Also the quantites of Pistols and SMG seem limited as in SS Security units etc.
Also mentioned after each pistol caliber type is the diction “SS”
The calibers noted are 9mm para( P.08), 7.63 Mauser 7.65 Auto, 6.35 Auto, 9mm M22 /9mmSteyr,
9mmM34/? 9x25 and 9mm Kurz. All calibres known to have been used by the SS.
Also is this definitely a Wehrmacht Document or a general ammo depot document…I see the Document come from a Dutch language URL (" patroon" is Dutch)

Doc AV

No idea what the SS in the columns at top stand for, but

On the left bottom the sheet says “einschließlich Luftwaffe und Marine”, “air force and navy included”. Included into an SS or police table does not sound reasonable to me, does it?

Some translation attempts and explanations:
This is a German tabel showing the manufacturing numbers of different calibers the three lines: 1. forecast, 2. real numbers 3. manufacturing numbers since the begin of the war Sept 1st 1939.
The name of the pic is dutch.
In fact I cannot see (with my limited knowledge) from which organisation the table is issued in original besides of the SS markings.
On the other hand the quite low numbers indicate that this is not all manufacturing numbers. Even for the SS it is seams way to low.

Doc - the 9mm M22 is not 9 mm Steyr, but rather 9 mm Short (.380). That is the Czech designation for that caliber and I would think that since it is mentioned specifically, the ammo would be of Czech headstamps. The M34 designation is Italian, for the 1934 Beretta, and that designation is usually on Italian military cartridges of 9 mm Corto case type. I would assume those cartridges were of Italian manufacture. Finally, a third category is mentioned - 9 mm K (9 mm Kurz) and I would assume those were of German manufacture.
The only military headstamped 9 mm Short ammo I can think of with a German style, and German-coded headstamp was made by and headstamped “dou.” (Occupied Czechoslovakian-made).

In 7.65 mm Browning, their were military headstamps, the most often found from the WWII era, as I recall, are the “P” and the “aux” headstamps. Their is also a “dou.” headstamp in that caliber, but I think it is pretty scarce among collectors.

I know there are differing opinions concerning what constitutes military or commercial ammunition. Some hold “military” is a term that should be used only when ammunition is made for and procured by the actually military forces of a country, and not para-military or police. Others believe that the term commercial intimates ammunition made to be sold to the population at large. Of course, in relatively free countries like the US, the line becomes blurred because many police agencies (city and town) buy their own ammo. Some tiny departments in very small towns even buy their ammo from local gun shops, and those small, rural departments that don’t mandate caliber or type of pistols and revolvers used, within certain broad guidelines, the officers actually buy their own ammo, sometimes reimbursed and sometimes not. The line is blurred in the other direction in Militarily-influenced dictatorships, especially those that have all sorts of para-military organizations as was the case in German under National Socialism (SS, SA, NSKK, etc.).

I personally use the terminology that if it procured for the military or police it is “military” (more properly, I guess, “official Govt.”) ammunition, and if it is sold to individuals, whether purely civilian gun owners or military personnel using a privately purchase weapon, or police making local purchase, it is commercial. A lot of this opinion is based on the headstamps used, if a country in question uses different heads on “official” purchases of ammunition, and the packaging. If it is boxed with military-type labels like those that began this interesting thread, and have military-type headstamps, then I consider the ammunition to be “military.” If boxed with commercial-style boxes and containing ammo with commercially used headstamps, I call it commercial ammunition. Of course, from time to time, especially for limited-use weapons, even the military in many countries purchase “commercial” ammunition, so once again, the line is blurred.

A topic where in my view, there is no right or wrong in how one wishes to define cartridges. It is purely an exercise in semantics open to differing opinions.

John Moss

The most interesting table (because it lists not only planned/real production, but also consumption) shared by Dutch is a >military< document because “Geheime Kommandosache” (GKdos) was the top military classification used by the Wehrmacht. It translates Secret Command Matter. Only “Geheime Reichssache” (Secret Imperial Matter) was higher.
The many SS at the top are “Dringlichkeitsstufe” or armament production priority: SS = Sonderstufe (very high).

In my view, only Heereswaffenamt qualifies as originator of this document, because at the time (1941) its position in this respect was still unrivalled (unlike the later Speer period).

@DocAV4901

I am sorry for some confusion.
To find it easier on my computer I named this document “Pistoomunitie” in Dutch, I am a Dutchman. I could give the document a different name if you like. -:)

Around this time the SS organisation must still organise there own ammunition.
It changed for them by staying in front by occupying Czech factories.

Somewhere I picked up a document from the same protocol concerning the P318.

Rgds

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Thanksfor all the explanations. My limited German knowledge led me up the wrong conclusions, both as regards ammo ID and the origins of the document.

My apologies for any misdirection caused by my posts.

Doc AV

a few pistol Cartridges with military headstamps dated back from 1939 to 1940.


9 mm mauser
9 mm M.22
7,65 mm browning short
7,63 mm mauser



Laurant - that 7.63 Mauser cartridge with P635 headstamp intrigues me. I recently took park in a study with most of the actual work done by a well-known collector in South Africa. I involved some much more advanced collectors than I as well, and this headstamp on a 7.63 Mauser did not come to light.

Have you examined this cartridge very carefully? Does the neck show any signs of being resized? It would be pretty easy to form a 9 x 25 mm Mauser cartridge into 7.63 mm, and that is the cartridge most known with a P635 headstamp. I just wondered, because if it can be documented as original, it is a fabulous find.

Thank for posting those pictures. They are very nicely done.

John M.

Hello John,
I recently get this Cartridge from a former collector who gave it to me because I was being interestedd by the headstamp. I’n not an expert of reloading cartridges, but Looking at it carefully, , for me it doesn’t seem that the shoulder was resized, there are also three 120° punchs on the neck to secure the bullet. Below some pictures of the cartridge, it’s the best I can do…
Also, the rim thickness of the 9 mm mauser is 1,27mm whereas the 7,63 mm mauser is only 1,10mm.
Regards
Laurent


Laurent,

I took the liberty of modifying your photos to show some details better-

Brian

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It looks to me like the case mouth has been outside-chamfered, a feature I don’t recall on many 7.63 mm Mauser rounds. However, people who reform brass, or convert cartridges available in a caliber not used much today, to one for which they have a gun, usually do not do the stab-type neck crimps. They seem lower than normally seen on factory crimps of that type, but that really proves nothing either way.

I will say this. If I came across one of these rounds, I would most certainly add it to my own collection, until it was proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it was not original. Even then, I would probably keep it as a curiosity.

I am glad to see all these good pictures, and than both you and Brian for posting them. Ity is an interesting cartridge specimen regardless of whether or not it is the original configuration of the cartridge-case.

John Moss

Thank you John for your comments, I hadn’t noticed this kind of chamfer at the mouth case before you spoke about, I need to take a magnifying glass to constate it. As I said, I took this cartrige for the military headstamp and will keep it in my collection. Below, new measurments of both cartridges:
7%2C63%20vs%209