9 m/m LUGER PETERS


#1

I found this cartridge in a local gun show mixed with 9 mm Glisenti (hstp = WESTERN 1917).

Is this cartridge dates from the same period ?

Thanks for your help.

chassepot


#2

Actual cartridge information, as opposed to company history for which there is a very nice book,
seems hard to come by for Peters ammunition. Lew Curtis’ book on 9 mm headstamps show this headstamp in use from 1929 until 1938, and shows nothing earlier than 1929. That may indicate that Peters did not start marketing the 9 mm Luger cartridge until that year. Due to the GM (copper) bullet, as opposed to a tinned or plated bullet, and the nickel primer, I would guess that the round pictured is from the later part of that era - mid to late 1930s. It is not contemporary to the WESTERN 9 mm Glisenti rounds of WWI (by the way, after the War left-over cases with the Glisenti dated headstamps were loaded as commercial 9 mm Para) and, of course from the headstamp, is not a Glisenti loading. Peters never loaded the 9 mm Glisenti cartridge.


#3

John, I’m sure that Lew must have an explanation for the introductory 1929 date for this headstamp but it seems that this cartridge was commercially introduced by Peters in late 1919 or early 1920, probably as a follow up to USCCo introduction. The advertisement below is dated March 15, 1920.

This related advertisement by USCCo is dated February 15, 1920 and supports what Lew said in a previous post concerning the introductory date of the 9 mm Luger by this firm (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12953&p=92096&hilit=glisenti+uscco#p92096).


#4

My 1914 Peters listing shows two loadings for .30 Luger, nothing is shown for 9mm. No headstamps are provided.


#5

Fede, Again, many thanks for your research. My information came from pricelist and catalog info which was spotty. I could only confirm use of this headstamp from 1929-1938 and the HSG entry is:

You have moved the confirmed introduction date up to 1920. One of the many corrections that will get included eventually.

Although I know this headstamp was in use as late as 1938, I can’t confirm the use of the replacement headstamp earlier than 1952 (from the catalog of that year).

Can anyone confirm when this headstamp style changed???

Many thanks!!!
Lew


#6

Fede - Well, amigo, what more can be said. Again the “Argentine Connection” comes thru with fantastic information! Peters has always been a difficult company for the research of the actual
specimen cartridges themselves - nothing on primer cup materials and when they changed, what bullets were offered when, etc. If one doesn’t have a great catalog collection of their brochures, anything other than company history is hard to find. These ads are a huge help. I have never had much luck even finding Peters advertising or catalogs. I have huge gaps in my library for them.

Thanks again! You are truly the Superman of cartridge research!!!


#7

Now you make me wonder what other US brands have ads out there for their introduction of the 9mm Para cartridge. We have Remington reliably dated to Aug 1912, and UMC began production in Nov 1908. WRACo introduced the 9mmP in their 1908 catalog, a year before UMC.

I don’t know when Western initiated production, but since they made 9mm Glisenti ammo during WWI, it is likely that they began production immediately after the war.

I guess Western is now the only early US company that I don’t have a date for.

Cheers,

Lew


#8

The earliest Western Catalog I have is from c.1922 (it is hand-dated August 1922). It shows the 9 mm Luger cartridge in two loadings, a 124 grain full-metal patch bullet and a 124 grain hollow-point bullet. Both loads have truncated bullets.


#9

John–If you go to the following URL, you will find a 90% complete Peters Catalogs list from 1896-1980’

22box-id.com/catalogs/Peters/index.htm

Go here for other brands. We have recently added quite a few new catalogs.

22box-id.com/catalogs.htm


#10

Thanks to John & Ron!

Western price list from 1917 does not list 9mmP but it is in the 1921 pricelist! That ties in with John’s catalog dated 1922 pretty well ties it down.

If anyone has Western pricelists from 1918, 1919 or 1920, please let me know and send scans to Ron for his great website he and others are working on!

Cheers,

Lew


#11

Thanks gentlemen !

chassepot


#12

I noted that this cartridge was first listed in the 1931 catalog as “M.C.GK.” (Metal Cased Gildkote) and at the same time was first offered as “Oil-Tite”. The “Gildkote” trademark was used since December 12, 1929 and the “Oil-Tite” since January 30, 1931.

I also observed that a cartridge headstamped PETERS 9 m/m LUGER with truncated bullet is still illustrated in the 1939 retail catalog and also in the 1948 “Electrotype and Advertising Service for Wholesalers and Dealers” catalog. The 1948 retail catalog is the first one to illustrate a cartridge with a GM round nose bullet a case with a knurled cannelure.

Hope this help to narrow some dates.


#13

An earlier edition of that Peters advertisement for the 9 mm Luger that Fede showed, reported as being from 1919 and showing both the 9 mm Luger and the 8 mm Mauser, is on Ron Merchant’s website showing various catalogs. He provided a direct link to it on this thread. Click on that link, when it comes up click on “Peters” and then scroll down to “1919” and click on the entry for that year that says “1919 9 mm Luger,” or something like that, to view it. The date on the ad is handwritten in, not printed by the company, so I don’t know what documentation there is for the 1919 date, but I assume it is probably right, in light of the similar one shown by Fede to be from 1921.


#14

Ron,

I believe your links should end in “[color=#FF0000].php[/color]” otherwise one gets “page not found”.

[color=#0000FF]http://22box-id.com/catalogs.php[/color] &
[color=#0000FF]http://22box-id.com/catalogs/Peters/peters.php[/color]


#15

Scott–The problem is because Roger just changed from HTML to PHP in the last couple of days. Go to the home page (22box-id.com/default.htm) and select “AMMO CATALOGS” and you should be OK. Then create a new Bookmark. Or you can clear your cache (press F5) and that should work also.